This post will detail the other women linked to Ted Bundy romantically besides his well-known girlfriends Diane Edwards, Liz Kloepfer, and Carole Boone. While less discussed than his major relationships, all of these women had interesting stories to share about their time with Bundy.
They have all since changed their names.
Cathy Swindler, Seattle 1968
Excerpt from The Deliberate Stranger by Richard Larsen:
It was rather ironic, Cathy Swindler remembered with a chuckle, how Ted first seemed to her “sort of Kennedylike.” There was a little personal-political irony in that. During 1968, that year of turbulence and frustration for America, agonizing over the war in Vietnam and social upheaval at home, Cathy was an early, avid supporter of Senator Robert F. Kennedy in his campaign for the Presidency. Then came his shocking assassination in California, and Cathy was disconsolate. An acquaintance at Western Washington State College, where she was a student, persuaded Cathy to go to work for what her friend described as “the next best candidate available”: Nelson Rockefeller of New York.
Although Rockefeller was a Republican, and Cathy was a loyal Democrat, she volunteered to work in the Draft Rockefeller headquarters in downtown Seattle. The office manager welcomed her with a cordial greeting: “Hi, I’m Ted Bundy. Welcome to the Rockefeller campaign.” He was quite handsome, and Cathy, a pretty nineteen-year-old with long honey-brown hair, was impressed by her new supervisor. “He was very well dressed and well mannered,” Cathy recalled. “The kind of guy a girl my age would look at and just say wow! Sort of Kennedylike.”
Day by day, as she performed her routine work—typing, sorting file cards, handling telephone calls and other campaign chores—Cathy also watched and admired the efficient, obviously confident young man. “Ted had control of what he was doing. He was really poised. He was friendly. He was always smiling.” Ted had a way of letting volunteers know their work was appreciated. “He was terribly charismatic. Obviously, he was someone who had a great deal of compassion in dealing with other people.”
Then came that exciting moment when Ted approached Cathy’s desk and asked, “Would you like to walk with me up to the public market for lunch?”
“I almost fell all over myself,” she remembered. She accepted, of course, with as much composure as she could summon. That noontime, in the bright sunshine, the two of them—the suave, twenty-one-year-old man and the shining-faced younger woman—walked together, chatting happily, along the busy downtown street, northward to Seattle’s Pike Place market, a quaint arcade of farm-fresh fruit and vegetable stands, fish markets, crafts shops, and tucked-away eating places.
“Why don’t we have bagels and cream cheese?” Ted suggested. “What and what?” Cathy laughed. Slightly embarrassed, she admitted she had never heard of bagels. Ted patiently explained that, while bagels and cream cheese might be unfamiliar to a native of Seattle, it was a common order, especially in the East. “Try it,” he suggested.
Cathy and Ted took their bagels, wrapped in napkins, to a place behind the market, where they could sit and look down on Seattle’s waterfront. The warm breeze ruffled their hair, and Cathy listened, fascinated, as Ted talked about his studies at the University of Washington, his interest in the law and politics and people. Cathy felt flattered that he treated her so equally, even though she felt very little-girl like in the presence of a young man of such urbanity. “He was a champion of causes. He was concerned about the situation of the blacks, of all minorities. And the poor,” she remembered. “He was unhappy with the injustices of society, and he wanted to do something about them.”
After their first lunch together, there were other dates. Sometimes they went to a movie, sometimes they just had coffee and conversation. Once Ted invited Cathy to his apartment in the University District to play chess. “I don’t know how to play chess,” she replied. “It’s okay, I’ll teach you,” he offered. Ted’s grin was encouraging and irresistible.
Cathy arrived at Ted’s upstairs apartment a little early that afternoon and, because he wasn’t home, she waited at the doorway until he appeared. Ted soon came bounding up the stairs, wearing his tennis garb—white shorts, white tennis shirt, socks, and shoes. He just looks healthier’n hell, Cathy thought. “Hi, sorry to be late,” Ted said, tucking his tennis racket under one arm and unlocking the apartment door. “Come on in.”
Ted’s small student bachelor apartment was tidy, with a neat arrangement of books and an orderly study desk. It was a warm summer day, and so the bed, in its folded-down position, was covered only by a white sheet. Ted opened the chessboard on the bed, and they sat down together, Ted arranging the chessmen and explaining the procedures of chess to her. During the game, when Cathy began to move a pawn, Ted warned her softly, “Look at it, now. Look at it. Think about it.” It was a gentle warning that the move she was about to make would put her in some trouble. Cathy withdrew her fingers from the pawn and looked up at him in wonderment. He merely grinned back at her. “Think about it now,” he encouraged. Ted made it clear she would have to think to contemplate each move until she understood what it might incur. Ted was an excellent chess coach.
Eventually their relationship progressed to the stage of an occasional embrace and kiss. If Ted’s touching became too intimate, Cathy needed only to touch his hand, and the hand withdrew. “He was always just the perfect gentleman,” she remembered.
Later that summer of ’68, Ted went off to Florida to attend the Republican National Convention, to continue his work in the Rockefeller cause. That was a losing effort. Richard Nixon in 1968 swept to an easy nomination, en route to the Presidency. But Ted that year had discovered the world of politics and campaigning.
Years later, Cathy and her father thought back and tried to remember if, during the time she and Ted were dating, she ever introduced Ted to her dad. “I think I must have,” Cathy said. Her father, Herb Swindler, confessed, “You know, I just can’t remember for certain if I ever did meet him. But you know I’d sure like to be able to meet him and talk to him now.” Herb Swindler became chief of the homicide division of the Seattle Police Department in 1974, the year in which the series of murders of young women stunned the city.
Even after all the hundreds of news reports about Ted Bundy’s possible connection with so many murders of young women across the nation, Cathy could only reflect on the Ted she had known:
“Ted Bundy was a figure that people met and loved. I mean, I thought I loved Ted Bundy. Not totally in a romantic way … but in terms of being moved by what he said and his feelings for other human beings … if you know him, you can’t help but have a great deal of affection for him as a human being.”
After a few changing directions in her life, Cathy Swindler had decided she wanted to be a journalist. So, that spring of ’74, she had become a communications major at the University of Washington. Earlier, Cathy had taken a few months away from college to live and work in New York City. Now she was happy to be back in her hometown, applying herself in a field which interested her. Emerging from the Communications Building, carrying her books, Cathy stepped into the sunshine of that spring day, leisurely descended a few brick steps to the flow of students criss-crossing the campus between classes.
Suddenly, among the passing young faces, she noticed that especially familiar one, the face of the young man to whom she’d been so attracted six years earlier—Ted Bundy. He was riding his bicycle along the street, moving slowly through the traffic of bikes and pedestrians. They saw each other. Cathy wanted to grin and wave and shout, “Hi, Ted!” But somehow she didn’t.
“It was a noncontact, really,” she reflected later. “We both looked at each other. And we saw each other. But we didn’t say anything to each other. I often wondered why I didn’t say anything.”
Sandy Gwinn, Seattle 1972
Pseudonyms: “Claire Forest” (Rule); “Marcy” (Kendall); “Cynthia Holt” (Michaud & Aynesworth); “Kimberly” (Carlisle); “Joan” (Winn & Merrill)
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Kathleen McChesney
Received phone call from SANDY GWINN, she is employed as manager of the Stanford Court Hotel in San Francisco. Sandy stated that she met TED BUNDY in the Summer of 1972 when she worked with him at Harborview Mental Health. She worked with him for several months and went out with him for about four or five months. She stated that his girlfriend kept threatening suicide and this presented a problem and they broke up. She stated that Liz had come to Ted’s house when she was in Ted’s room and this presented quite a problem. She stated they went to Pier 70 and a couple of other restaurants and also a black nightclub.
She felt that Ted was very concerned about mental health problems.
She remembers going on a picnic with him at a river south of Seattle near Olympia – it was a secluded area – they had intended to go to Ocean Shores, however, it was foggy and they had a picnic instead at this other location. They went in Sandy’s car as Ted did not have a car at the time. She describes Ted as being a friendly type. She remembers bike riding at Greenlake with him several times.
She remembers one occasion which they drove to Lake Sammamish to look for someone who Ted knew but Ted wasn’t able to find the house; she believes it was someone in his family, like a grandmother. She stated that he had some strange attitudes and remembered that he did not have any men friends. She remembered that he did not have a father who was living and was very concerned about a younger sister who had a couple of children she could not support.
He told Sandy he felt inferior to her and did not want to come to Sandy’s home for that reason. He always wore dark colored clothes, navy and brown. They went sailing on Lake Washington several times after renting a sailboat at Portage Bay. Ted loved to sail very much.
In the summer after graduation Ted worked at Harborview for about six months. Sandy stopped working at Harborview in Sept. of ’72 and stopped seeing Ted primarily due Liz’s suicide threats. Ted told her he had broken up with Liz prior to his seeing Sandy.
Ted was always broke. On one occasion Sandy went with Ted to see Mongo Santamaria near Jackson Street. He enjoyed her dependence on him and enjoyed seeing her hassled by blacks.
On one occasion she dropped him off at the corner near Liz’s house because he saw Liz go by while he was in Sandy’s car.
He tried out techniques on patients during counseling but seemed to be without compassion. She noticed that he belittled himself often and wanted to get a graduate degree in psychology but did not feel he could do so.
He was very physically oriented and enjoyed touching Sandy. He had a warm smile but they did not get involved physically. She felt that the strangest thing about him was that he had no men friends. She describes him as sexually aggressive; that he had several plants in his room and had a great desire to buy a sailboat. She had been to his room approximately six times. She never saw a weapon in his room.
She believes they went to Alpenthal one time and hiked around, Sandy’s parents have a condominium at Alpenthal. They would usually go places for one day at a time, never overnight. Sandy’s roommates did not like Ted.
She describes Ted as being in good physical condition, that he would run often and rode his bike to a lot of places. He also went to the Intramural building a lot. Ted did not own a car at the time.
Ted spoke as an intellectual. Sandy described his voice as having British overtones. He tried to express himself in very intellectual terms. The last time she saw Ted was in Sept. 1972. Sandy left the Seattle area in Feb. 1973 and has been in San Francisco since that time.
She also recalled that Ted liked to do things that were dangerous because he thought they were fun. During the time they picnicked at the river they went swimming and Ted was very much enjoying ducking her.
Sometimes Sandy would notice Ted staring at her and would notice that he was very friendly to many women. He did not talk about any men in his life unless it was in a derogatory manner. He thought his mother was weak and was very concerned for his younger sister.
Approximate time Ted and Sandy went out together was between June and September 1972 however, she did not consider him to be a serious boyfriend.
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Bob Keppel
Gwinn first started seeing Bundy in April 1972 when they both worked at Harborview mental health center. She went out with him until June 1972. She recalls on one occasion that they went on a picnic to Ocean Shores. The beach was overcast so Ted knew of a place on the Humptulips River they could picnic. They ate their lunch and drank wine. Then they went swimming in the river. Ted would dunk her head under the water. Then he would untie the top to her bikini. She finally tied it in a knot. Gwinn was dizzy so she laid on some rocks. Ted came up to her and tried to untie her bikini top. He couldn’t do it so he just pulled off her bottoms and had sexual intercourse with her. She recalls that during intercourse Ted had his forearm under her chin and she couldn’t breathe. She kept telling him she couldn’t breathe but he did let up until he was finished. There was no affection that Ted displayed and this was unusual because although they had never had sexual intercourse before, Ted would kiss and show affection. They did not say anything to each other during intercourse. On the way home they talked of Ted’s family. The only person he did not talk about was his father. Gwinn severed relations because she found out that Liz, a girlfriend of his, had threatened suicide and she did not want any part of that.
Took Gwinn to Issaquah to see if she could recalI her trip with Bundy. She recalled going northbound on East Lake Sam Rd. past the boat launch and took a road to the right up a hill. They then drove on roads looking for an old lady’s house. Ted would not tell her the address just that he would recognize the house. Gwinn became angry because she did not want to waste the day. She did recognize a road similar to the Black Nugget Ranch Road they may have driven down. She remembers the roads being narrow with trees hanging over. Some roads were very bumpy. They did not stop anywhere.
Excerpts from the Minutes of the Aspen Seminar
November 13-14, 1975
June to September he was employed as a counselor at H.V.H. Mental Health Center. Here he met Sandy Gwinn. Bundy worked at H. V .H. counselling people on the psycho wards. Sandy Gwinn stated he had no feelings for these people at all. He had a very cut and dried approach. At this time he took Gwinn on various trips and was familiar with areas east of Seattle where bodies were found. Regarding their sexual relationship she inferred that it was a quick slam bang approach by him. He would have sex with her and frequently hold his arm around her neck so that she had to complain to him that she could not breathe. (…)
In the summer of 72 he took frequent bike trips around Greenlake with Sandy Gwinn as well as sailing on Lake Washington and he also went to Lake Sammamish State Park with Sandy Gwinn. He also visited Sandy’s parents at their Alpenthal condominium at which time Karen Covach (Linda Healy’s roommate) met Bundy. The Alpenthal is located at a ski area East of Seattle. At this time the expenses of these dates were on Sandy Gwinn as Bundy didn’t have any money. (…)
In June, Sandy Gwinn’s car was stolen and she suspected Bundy had stolen it as he was prone to borrowing it without permission. However, she couldn’t prove it. Later on it was found that Liz’s car was also stolen. (…)
Around this time Liz finds out about Sandy Gwinn and threatens suicide, whereupon Sandy wanted out of the relationship. To gain favor with Liz, Bundy belittles himself, says he is inferior, etc. so Liz takes him back.
Excerpt from the Presentence Investigation Report by Donald Hull, 1976
While employed at the Harbor View Mental Health Center in Seattle, Washington between 2/19/72 and September 1972, Ted met a girl by the name of Sandi Gwinn on 4/22/72. Sandi Gwinn and Ted Bundy were employed as counselors during the summer of 1972 and began dating. They had sexual intercourse on several occasions. On one such occasion, Gwinn recalls that while engaged in intercourse with Ted that he put his elbow over her throat and she could not breathe. She called out several times for him to stop this and she believed that he was not aware of doing this to her. Her main recollection of the sexual act is that she could not breathe during intercourse. A discussion was held with Mr. Bundy regarding this incident and he stated affirmatively that he did have sexual intercourse with Sandi Gwinn but depicted her as a disturbed girl (although employed as a counselor at the Harbor View Mental Health Center) who was “giving vent to her imagination.”
Excerpt from The Phantom Prince by Elizabeth “Kendall”
I spent the July 4 weekend in Utah, but Tina didn’t come back with me. I was lonely and everything seemed to make me sad. The day I got back, Ted asked me if I wanted to go out the next night, a Friday, but I was so tired I said I didn’t know. The next day I felt a lot better and called Ted at his job to tell him that I did want to go out after all.
He stammered and hemmed and hawed and finally told me that he had a date.
“What? A date? With who?”
“A woman I work with. Remember, I asked you first…”
“Tell me you’re kidding,” I pleaded. “Please don’t do this to me.” I slammed down the phone and waited for him to call back. But he didn’t. I told my boss I had to leave. I rode my bicycle home, crying all the way and talking out loud to myself, telling myself it wasn’t true. (…)
First thing the next morning, I threw on some clothes and drove over to Ted’s. His landlord let me in and when I knocked on Ted’s door there was no answer. I felt around the ledge where Ted always hid his key, found it and let myself in. The bed was made- maybe he hadn’t come home at all. I poked around the room looking for evidence and I found it. In his garbage can was a note from a girl named “Marcy.”
“Saw you out riding your bicycle in the sun. Came by to visit but you weren’t here. You missed out!”
By the time Ted burst into the room I was lying on his bed, hysterical.
“What are you doing here?” he said, coming towards me. I sat up and started scooting backward, away from him. I didn’t want him to touch me. “Are you all right?” I rolled off the bed and shot past him. He reached out and grabbed me and wrapped his arms around me. I was shaking with rage. I had so much to say that I was speechless. “Stay here until I get back,” he told me. I nodded, but as soon as I heard him go out the front door I ran after him. He was just getting into a sporty red car. That must be her car. Maybe I should follow him. “Go back to my room and wait for me,” he shouted as he drove off. I sat on his porch steps and put my head on my knees and rocked back and forth and moaned and moaned. (…)
Ted said little. I wanted to know more about this other woman, “Marcy.” He told me she was just somebody he worked with at Harborview. How long had they been dating? Well, they had spent the Fourth of July together, he said.
“All day? You must really like her. Where did you go?” I felt like a kamikaze pilot.
“I don’t think that is important. Telling you the details will only cause you more hurt.” I knew why he didn’t want to go on.
“You went rafting, didn’t you? You went rafting with ‘Marcy’ in the raft I gave you as a present.” I only wished the raft was here so I could slice it into a million yellow ribbons.
Excerpt from Violent Mind by Dr. Al Carlisle:
“Kimberly” was an attractive 23-year old who had graduated college and was doing an internship in counseling at the Harborview Mental Health Center in Seattle in the summer of 1972. Both Ted and “Kim” were offered intern positions at the clinic where they, along with other interns, would work with the mentally ill. (…) “Kim” was in training meetings and therapy sessions with Ted and other interns, and she and the others had the opportunity to watch each other in practice.
When I called “Kim,” she said she was initially impressed with Ted’s good looks and his ability to talk, and he seemed confident and self-assured. She admired his mind. He had the ability to analyze things, to think things through.
Ted hadn’t been at the center for very long before people changed their opinions of him. “Kim” said they were critical of him because he didn’t follow the normal intern schedule and “he came and went as he chose.” “Kim” said, “In therapy, he was harsh and cold and people were dismayed. He showed anger toward women and others. He lacked understanding of the clients.” She said he showed self-confidence outwardly, but he had strong feelings of inferiority underneath.
“Kim” started dating Ted but said:
“The relationship was strained. It was as if there was a power struggle between us. A couple of times when he made sexual advances, it was a real mental and physical struggle about who was going to get their way. It wasn’t that I would tell him I didn’t want sex. It was the timing. It was a putdown to him, an absolute putdown. I really had to do a lot of fast talking because it wasn’t appropriate at that particular time, in that place. That seemed to be more and more of a challenge to him, as if he was trying to break down the barriers. To win was sort of a conquest to him.”
“Kim” described a time when Ted took her on a picnic to a local river. They traveled down the highway until they reached a point where Ted turned off the main road onto a dirt road and then turned off onto another less frequented dirt road. “Kim” was impressed that Ted knew this out of the way place for such an event. It seemed obvious that Ted wasn’t looking for a new place to have the picnic. He had been there previously. There were no houses or other indicators that many people went there. He soon turned off on yet another dirt road. Ted stopped by a large tree that was close to the river. The branches extended out over the river and they were large enough that a person could climb out and jump in. It was a hot day. They lay in the shade of the tree and talked and drank some wine. “He said he wanted me to climb up into the tree and jump in. This is where the antagonism started. It was a stupid thing to do in the first place and then to try to force me to do it…”
She told Ted she didn’t want to do it. He kept after her and finally she jumped from the bank into the river.
“I got in the water thinking that if I was already in the water he wouldn’t keep pressing me to climb up in the tree and jump in. He got in the water with me and dunked my head under. He tried to untie the top of my bathing suit. It was a pretty swift current and I didn’t want to lose the top of my bathing suit.”
“Kim” said Ted held her head under the water for a long time time. When he allowed her to come up she confronted him. “‘What were you trying to do? Drown me?’ He laughed and dunked me under again. I didn’t think of it as if I was going to drown. I didn’t think he was trying to kill me. I thought, he doesn’t realize what he’s doing.”
He pushed her head under water three times and he kept trying to undo her bathing suit. To stop him from that she tied her top in so many knots she had to cut it off when she got home. (…)
When Ted and “Kim” got out of the river they had sex. It evidently was on the ground and not on a blanket because “Kim” remembered small cuts and scratches on her back and neck from being on the ground. She said the sex was consensual but it was as if Ted was raping her. It was
“…very intense, very aggressive. It was as though I really didn’t think he was conscious of what he was doing because it wasn’t a bonding situation. I was just a body lying there is all. It wasn’t as if we were doing something together. Something was being done to me. It was sheer terror. It flashed in my mind that nobody else was around here.”
One of the primary issues between “Kim” and Ted was his feelings of inferiority. (…) “Kim” related,
“He told somebody at work that I was of the status class or something like that and he felt inferior to me. He apologized all over the place for his background. I could not convince him that his background was not that relevant. He felt inferior and I think that’s why the intellectual battle occurred. It seemed as though he was striving for some means of proving himself.”
“Kim” felt that Ted put her up on a pedestal and then would try to knock her off. She described his behavior as different from other guys she dated: “He always wore dark clothes, even in the summer. He wore turtleneck sweaters. He was a night person. He would show up without telling me he was coming, sometimes at midnight.”
I asked “Kim” if there was anything that seemed puzzling about Ted when she was going with him. She said,
“Well, at times he would take me for a drive in the hills by Lake Sammamish and he would drive around and around. I would ask him about it and he would say he was looking for an aunt. It didn’t make any sense because there were only cabins there. It certainly was not residential by any means. It was in the woods.”
They were in “Kim’s” car and Ted was driving. The dirt roads they were on were bad. “Kim” became frightened because “I kept telling him to slow down but he wouldn’t.” Finally, she insisted that he slow down. The reaction she got from him frightened her.
“He really reacted and he started yelling at me. I couldn’t figure out where that kind of reaction was coming from. His temper was way out of line. To tell me to shut up was one thing but he really exploded at me. That was the first display of temper I had seen. It was inappropriate. It wasn’t as though I was sitting there nagging at him. It was just one comment. After that I didn’t know what to say.”
One evening when “Kim” and Ted were at a restaurant, Liz discovered it. Ted left the restaurant to go back to his apartment to get something. Liz was there and she was hysterical. “Kim” said, “He told me Liz was hysterical and was going to kill herself. He said she was jealous and was going to commit suicide.” At that point, he ended the relationship with “Kim.” (…)
I asked “Kim” if there were times when Ted seemed to dissociate during sex. She said,
“Ah, yeah, there were. One time when we were making love Ted seemed out of it. He was spaced out. He seemed to be in some kind of sexual fantasy. He had his arm over my throat and it was choking me and I couldn’t breathe. I couldn’t bring him out of it. Finally, he stopped.”
Excerpt from Ted Bundy: The Killer Next Door by Steven Winn and David Merrill:
One afternoon a fellow counselor named “Joan” observed Ted with an older woman patient. After 15 minutes of watching him correct the patient’s grammar and use words she didn’t understand, “Joan” confronted Ted about his cold, callous style of counseling. They quarreled hotly in the hallway, but “Joan” was impressed as well as irritated with Ted. A modest summer romance began– trips to Chinatown, the waterfront, late night visits to her apartment on his bicycle.
It was his smile she liked– quick and warm– and his tireless flow of altruistic political ideologies. “He was charming, witty, suave, and very much the I’ve-got-it-all-together type.” He was often low on cash too: “Joan” recalled paying for most of their dates and lending him her car on occasion. Their relationship ended abruptly one night in his apartment. The phone rang, and after several minutes of murmuring in the next room, Ted stood up in front of “Joan” and asked her to leave. “That was [Liz],” he said. “She’s threatening to jump off a bridge.”
Becky Gibbs, Seattle 1974
Pseudonym: “Lisa Temple” (Rule)
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Kathleen McChesney
Personal contact with Susan Reade at her residence. Susan met Bundy in 1972 through a young people’s group, Action for Washington, which developed into Evans’ campaign committee. On June 23, 1974 in the late morning Bundy showed up at Reade’s apartment. Reade and her roommate had a habit of having big breakfasts for whoever might be around on Sunday morning and often friends would drop in at this time. Bundy stayed most of the day and left around dinnertime. This was the first time he met Becky Gibbs. There was no particular interest in Becky at the time however Larry Voshall was there and the four of them planned a raft trip for the following Saturday on a raft Bundy and his brother bought.
On Friday, June 28, 1974 Becky, Larry, Susan, and Ted had dinner. The following morning the four of them went on a raft trip by Thorp, Washington. Two cars were taken over to Cle Elum— Bundy’s and Susan’s. Becky and Bundy went in Bundy’s car, Reade and Voshall in hers. During this trip Reade saw a side of Bundy she had never seen. She said he “was a butt” towards Becky. He tied an inner tube to the back of the raft and made Becky ride in that. The name of the place where the raft was put into the water the second time was Diversion Dam— which is said to be a very dangerous place, a place one doesn’t ordinarily put rafts in at.
He became angry with Becky when they went through the white water, at this time her halter top fell down. They shuttled two cars during the ride and at the end of the ride Reade’s car was 8 miles or so from Bundy’s and Bundy’s keys were in Reade’s car. Bundy got a ride from someone at the KOA Campground to go get Susan’s car. This trip took Bundy 1 and 1/2 hours or so. When Bundy returned with the car he passed off where he had been and no one questioned him further.
Halfway though the raft trip Bundy’s mood seemed to change and he was very snotty towards everyone— as if he didn’t want to be there. They had dinner at the Sunset Cafe in North Bend, Becky bought dinner for Bundy as he had no money.
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Kathleen McChesney
Personal contact with Becky Gibbs. Becky met Ted Bundy at a dinner party given by Susan Reade in March or April of 1974. As she didn’t have a car, Susan told her of someone who might be able to give her a ride. Becky called up Ted and he gave her a ride to and from the party. They were not together during the party and he did not come in after he brought her home, though they did stop at Hasty Tasty for a cone. He had his beige VW at this time. The next time she saw Ted was Sunday morning, June 23rd, 1974. She was at Susan Reade’s house having brunch and Ted just showed up. They had a breakfast and everyone drank and Ted and Becky got together— they were dancing and kissing and so forth. Ted gave her a ride home. He came to her house and stayed for about 1/2 hour. They talked and necked. At 6:00 p.m. Becky had an appointment for dinner and got home around 11:00. Ted had said he’d come back and he did at midnight. He spent the night and they had intercourse and he left the next morning around 8 or 8:30. He was going to be late for work in Olympia she recalled.
On Tuesday or Wednesday of that week he asked her for a date for Friday night. On Friday night he was late getting to Becky’s and he said he was tired and cold. They went to Susan’s and waited for Larry Voshall and they all went together in Susan’s car to Bellevue for dinner. After dinner they went back to Sue’s but didn’t stay. Ted brought Becky back to her place and spent the night, having intercourse again. There was nothing unusual about his sexual behavior either time Becky was with Ted, however this Friday night Ted seemed different, withdrawn, colder. She thought something was bothering him or he was preoccupied.
The following morning at about 7 or 8 am Ted left to get ready for a raft trip they had planned with Susan and Larry. They left around 10 a.m. and stopped in North Bend. Becky thought Ted was getting impatient. At this point it seemed to Becky that Ted did not want to talk to her or be there; he was ignoring her. She remembers him being gone less than an hour, while going to get his keys and Susan’s car. On the way home to Seattle Ted and Becky hardly spoke. He helped her carry her things up to her apartment, kissed her goodnight and left. That is the last time she saw Ted. She also remarked that Ted bit his fingernails all the way down, it stands out in her mind after hearing what a great guy Bundy was.
Excerpt from The Deliberate Stranger by Richard Larsen:
[Larry Voshall said]: “It was June, and Ted invited me to go on a river-rafting trip with him over to the Yakima River. Ted apparently was very much into river rafting.” Eventually their plans grew to include a foursome. Susan Reade, a mutual friend, was invited to go along, and she in turn suggested that her girlfriend, Becky, go along, too.
They left Seattle in two cars, Becky riding with Ted in his Volkswagen, Susan traveling with Larry in his sedan. “Neither girl knew how to swim very well,” Voshall recalled, “and they were both a little apprehensive about river rafting. So we all stopped off at a sporting-goods shop and bought some lifejackets for the girls.”
After the two-hour drive across the mountains, they stopped beside the river where Ted and Larry placed the rubber raft in the water. “Even before we started,” said Voshall, “Ted’s mood seemed to change. I’d always thought of him as being a rather cheerful person, usually in a good mood, but I got a new look at him that day.
“We started down the river, with three of us in the raft and the fourth person in an innertube tied on behind the raft.” The Yakima meanders through farmlands and forests, then sometimes drops into swift white-water rapids. Susan and Becky squealed with beginner’s fright through the first stretch of rough water.
“Well, all at once, Ted, who’s behind Becky, unties the string of her halter top. The halter top fell off, exposing her breasts. We were all just flabbergasted, embarrassed. You know, we didn’t really know each other at all. Ted seemed to get some strange kick out of that. Later on we were in a pretty swift current, and Becky was behind the raft in the innertube. Ted reached for the rope and said, ‘What’ll you do if I untie this rope?’
Well, Becky’s screaming. Just scared to death. And I looked at Ted’s face, and I couldn’t believe it. He had a look on his face as though he was enjoying subjecting her to that terror—hearing her scream!
He had untied the rope. And I really got upset. I got hold of the rope and tied the innertube back to the raft. And I told him we’d better be more careful because the girls can’t swim. But Ted was in this grim mood, as though he was angry at all of us.
Later Susan and I talked about it, and we both agreed we’d seen a side of Ted we never knew was there. I’ll never forget how he seemed to enjoy subjecting that girl to terror.”
Pandora Thompson, Salt Lake City 1974
Pseudonyms: “Callie Fiore” (Rule), “Judy” (Carlisle)
Pandora Thompson was 23 years old and a recent divorcee when she met Ted through his neighbor, her friend Margith. Unlike Margith, Pandora was not raised Mormon but Unitarian, and was active in her “hippie” church into adulthood. She was very close to her mother, Norma, another free spirit. Norma was even arrested during a Vietnam War protest for assaulting a police officer and charged with resisting arrest in 1971.
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Kathleen McChesney
Nancy Scherer met Ted around July of 1974 at Dept. of Emergency Services. In mid May of 1975 Nancy, Carol Boone Anderson, and Dick Rolfs got tired of Olympia and decided to go skiing in Salt Lake and stayed with Bundy– they told him they were coming. While in Utah Ted said he had been going to Mormon prayer meetings but was not thinking of joining. Ted had a “neat” girlfriend named Pandora, about 5’7, short blonde afro, freckled, attractive. She was still attending school but also had her own catering service. They (Ted and Pandora) took Dick, Carol, and Nancy to “The Sun,” a homosexual bar. Ted had been there before but Nancy thought him uncomfortable there.
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Kathleen McChesney
Phone contact with Liz Kloepfer. She recalls Ted talking about Pandora, a girl he met through the girl living downstairs from him. She left Salt Lake and Ted said he attended a going away party for her at the airport. Ted said he thought Pandora “freaky.”
Excerpt from the notes of Detective Kathleen McChesney
Phone call received from Liz Kloepfer. Liz said that she had spoken with Ted last week and that he was not happy about her learning about his girlfriends in Utah. He advised that he had been sleeping with Pandora and stopped doing so after he spent Christmas with Liz instead of Pandora.
Excerpt from The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule:
He still phoned [Liz] often, but he met many new women in Utah. There was ‘Callie Fiore,’ a fey, almost-kooky freckled girl who lived in the house on First Avenue… [here Rule mixes up Pandora with Margith Maughan].
The only woman in Utah that he mentioned to [Liz] was ‘Callie Fiore,’ whom he described as “flaky.” He said that there’d been a goodbye party for ‘Callie’ sometime after Christmas of 1974, that they’d seen her off on a plane. He didn’t mention that ‘Callie’ hadn’t left for good, that she was coming back to Salt Lake City.
Excerpt from Violent Mind by Dr. Al Carlisle:
I talked to a couple of girls that he went out with. I spoke to the mother [Norma] of one of these girls. She said:
My first impression of him was that he was good looking and he was charming. He took my daughter out a couple of times in November 1974 and then he disappeared and I didn’t see him until the following spring. Then one day he dropped by my apartment, casually, as if nothing had happened.
In July of 1975, I put on a going away party for my daughter, “Judy.” She was a good cook and she would circulate around and talk to all the guests. That night they stayed up all night. Ted got cozy with Judy’s friend “Tasha” [Margith]. When “Judy” went back east Bundy dated “Tasha” for about a week. Then all of a sudden nothing. It was just like with “Judy.”
Excerpt from The Roots of Evil, by Myra MacPherson (published in Vanity Fair, May 1989):
Pandora dated Bundy when he was a law student at the University of Utah. She was struck by his sophistication; he knew the right wines, sometimes took her to French restaurants.
Today, Pandora says, “I can only recall two instances in the year that I knew Ted when I saw anything cruel or insensitive.” They were pals more than lovers; both had opted for friendship. The only night they made love was not memorable. “If it was terrific, I would have remembered; if it had been weird, I would have remembered. It really has faded from memory.”
What Pandora does remember is being kept awake by Bundy’s loud bed-stand radio. She asked him to turn it off and he refused, saying, in a cold voice, “No.”
Another time, Bundy kept rubbing his stubble of beard into her face as they danced, hurting her, refusing to quit, until she was forced to stop dancing. The rest of her memories of Ted are fun: talking into the night on the phone, buying a Christmas wreath for her mother.
By that time, Bundy had already murdered at least eleven women in Washington and had started his spree in Utah. When Pandora’s mother learned about the “other Ted,” she threw up.
Margith Maughan, Salt Lake City 1974
Pseudonyms: “Tasha” (Carlisle); “Wanda Hancock” (Winn & Merrill); “Judith Strachan” (Larsen)
Margith Maughan was Ted Bundy’s 27-year-old downstairs neighbor at 565 1st Avenue in Salt Lake City. She was raised in a religious, prominent Mormon family and her father was a justice on the Utah Supreme Court, however as an adult she no longer practiced the Mormon religion. During Bundy’s early 1976 kidnapping trial she testified for the prosecution. At that time the media caught wind of their relationship and Margith went into hiding, living at a hotel until his sentencing.
Excerpt from a Report by Detective Jerry Thompson
September 23, 1975
[Bundy] does not appear to have any close friends that we have been able to come up with. We have come up with one possible girlfriend, a Margith Maughan, who lives in the apartment complex at 565 First Avenue apartment 1 in the basement. She was observed with this individual on two or three occasions. It should also be noted that she does have an arrest record with our office for Possession of Narcotics and a Shoplifting charge.
Supplementary Report by Detective Beal
Contact was made with Margaret Maughan. Miss Maughan stated she had been a friend of Ted’s for approximately a year and they had moved in at about the same time. Miss Maughan seemed quite reluctant at first to speak with these officers as she stated she was a good friend of Ted’s and did not wish to get him into trouble. She stated that she was quite surprised that this investigation was still going on, that she had been aware of plain clothes policeman around the apartment and following Ted. She first became aware of this when Ted first told her about it. She stated she had been in Canada at the time Ted had been arrested.
She stated he had told her he was out for a ride and wanted to go to Heber, however, he did not have the money so he rode around the valley. He stated he had been out in the Kearns area and noticed a vehicle coming up on him rapidly from behind and he started out and then the red lights came on indicating a police car and he pulled over and stopped. He stated that they went through his ashtray trying to find marijuana seeds and could not find that. The Highway Patrolman then told him that he was the same vehicle that had evaded him earlier and he was then arrested for evading.
Miss Maughan stated as far as the ski cap, the ropes and the crowbar that Mr. Bundy was quite an outdoorsman and that these items along with a blanket were used and kept in his car for emergency purposes in case he was caught out in he cold over night and these could be used for survival.
Miss Maughan was asked if she knew there was anything else in the car and she stated these were all he had told her about.
Miss Maughan was then asked if she knew where Ted was living. She stated she did but did not know if she wished to reveal this to these officers at this time. After several minutes Miss Maughan stated that she wanted to cooperate, however, she did not want to feel she had given the address out and that these officers were going to continue to harass Ted. Miss Maughan then gave these officers the address. This address was verified that this is where Ted is living. Miss Maughan also indicated that she planned on contacting Ted and advising him that we were still inquiring and interested in him.
Supplementary Report by Detective Ballantyne
On Sunday, January 25, 1976, this officer received a call from Chief Dean Anderson stating that Mr. Richard Maughn had called him and advised that Margaret Maughn, his daughter, had some information about the Bundy case.
At 2:30 P.M. on 1/25/76 this officer and Chief Anderson met with Richard and Margaret Maughn in Chief Anderson’s office. The following is the substance of Margaret’s information. Margaret stated that she had talked with Ted Bundy and they had conversed about the tear in the back seat of Ted’s Volkswagen. Ted stated “they can’t get me on that because a lot of Volkswagens have torn back seats.” Margaret stated to this officer that she noticed the tear in the back seat just before Ted sold the car and the stuffing was coming out of it.
Ted also advised that he didn’t believe there was a difference between right and wrong, and that he liked virgins and he could get sex with them anytime he wanted to.
Margaret advised that the front seat in Ted’s Volkswagen was loose and when you rode in it you had to hang on because the seat would rock.
I asked Margaret when she had last seen Ted and she stated just before Christmas. She advised at that time he was supporting a full beard. I asked her if Ted wore glasses often and she stated no but when he does he wears different types. When asked if Ted had to wear glasses she stated she didn’t know.
Margaret advised that she had talked to a newspaper reporter from Seattle by the name of Henderson (first name unknown) but he writes for the night paper. Mr. Henderson advised that he and Ted had taken a trip down the river in Seattle in a boat. Tied behind the boat was an innertube which a girl was riding on. The boat hit some rough water and according to Henderson, Bundy got a wild look in his eyes and untied the innertube. Henderson further stated that Bundy drove like a wild man back to Seattle and never said a word for the entire hour and one-half. Further Henderson told Margaret that someone had written down the Washington plate number that is on Ted’s truck in an abduction in Oregon.
I asked Margaret if she knew whether Ted had ever been to Colorado and she stated that he had been over to one of the ski resorts.
Ted further told Margaret that he had asked a Carl Weary (spelling unknown) to watch his apartment for him when he left town because he was fearful that the police might try to break in. Ted obtained a heavy lock for the door, put screws in the windows and pulled the ladder up from the window. Margaret will obtain the date this happened.
Ted further advised that he had taken a trip over Lamb’s Canyon and had come out in Provo in the fall of 1974 prior to the snowfall. I asked Margaret if she knew if it was before or after the disappearance of Debra Kent, but she didn’t know.
Interview with: Margith Maughan
Ms. Maughan was interviewed at her attorney’s office on 9 March 1976.
Ms. Maughan stated that she first met Theodore Bundy in September (later part) of 1974 in Salt Lake City, Utah, at 565 1st Avenue, Salt Lake, in an apartment house. Ms. Maughan further stated that she rented unit #1 and Ted (Theodore Bundy) possibly lived in #2 upstairs, as Bundy was also the manager at that time. Ms. Maughan recalled that Bundy had moved there (565 1st Ave) shortly before she had.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy was attending the University of Utah law school, day sessions at this time. Ms. Maughan stated that when she met Bundy, he was driving a tan Volkswagen with Washington plates. Ms. Maughan stated that after February of 1975, Mr. Bundy’s vehicle had different Utah plates.
Ms. Maughan stated that after the 1st of October, 1974, she became socially acquainted with Ted Bundy. She described him as a very friendly person and a good conversationalist.
Ms. Maughan stated that she could recall Bundy being depressed on only one occasion and that was during the fall of 1974 when he mentioned he was 28 years old and still going to school. The comment was not violent at all.
Ms. Maughan stated that in March of 1975, she recalled seeing Bundy drive up in front of the apartment house. Bundy’s chest and shoulders were heaving as if upset. Bundy went upstairs without any explanation as to circumstances.
Ms . Maughan stated that religion was a topic of conversation as well as other subjects, as politics and psychscology. Ms. Maughan stated that the she never saw Bundy study or read; although he had a good selection of books of good reading, quality, none appeared to be the trash variety. But did recall that he did have the “Joy of Sex”. Bundy had asked Maughan if she had ever seen it and gave it to her to look at. She returned it after a quick viewing as she didn’t like it.
Ms. Maughn stated that Bundy was very immaculate, and that she felt uncomfortable to be in his (Bundy’s) apartment.
Ms. Maughan stated that friends or callers were not frequent and there was no particular type of person coming or going from Bundy’s apartment.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy never mentioned being in the State of Colorado or desiring to go there. Nor did she have first hand knowledge of his going there.
Ms. Maughan stated that Ted had told her he didn’t have money to ski, but he did like to ski.
Ms. Maughan stated that during a conversation with Ted Bundy after a Sunday church service, she and Bundy were into a discussion and Ted Bundy told her “there was no difference between right and wrong” in a religious sense. This conversation took place in Feb. or March of 1975.
Ms. Maughan stated that she knew Bundy to go to a bar that was considered gay (“The Sun”) as Ted had a live and let live attitude toward homosexuality.
Ms. Maughan stated that a Scott Nelson lived upstairs on the same floor as Ted Bundy. Ms. Maughan stated that Scott and Bundy became close friends but she could not recall any trips that Bundy took with Scott.
Ms. Maughan stated that she recalled Bundy taking trips that would cover Friday, Saturday, Sunday – frequently. Ms. Maughan recalled that she remembered this because Bundy kept the vacuum cleaner in his apt. She cleaned on weekends and he generally wasn’t there.
Ms. Maughan stated that when she first met Ted Bundy in 1974, he had his hair pulled back in a (or similar to) pompadour, however she does not recall him ever wearing his hair in that fashion again. She did recall he had changed his hair on different occasions. Ms. Maughan stated that in January 1975, Bundy’s hair was worn short on the sides and he was clean shaven.
Ms. Maughan stated that she knew Ted Bundy to own a light colored over coat but had no knowledge of a dark colored over coat.
Ms. Maughan stated that Ted Bundy spoke little of his family but he alleged to get along well with his mother, but didn’t appear to care about knowing his father.
Ms. Maughan stated that she has personally seen Ted Bundy remove the right front seat from his tan V.W. around March of 1975 or April 1975. Ted was being helped by Scott and at this time they were doing many things together.
Ms. Maughan stated that she recalled a statement by Ted Bundy: “I like virgins, I can have then any time I want.” Maughan recalled that this was his (Bundy’s) only mention of other woman as he never mentioned any particular type of women.
Ms. Maughan stated that she recalled during the fall of 1974 she had arrived home late and began cleaning her apartment when Ted Bundy came in carrying a satchel simulated alligator skin leather, a deep reddish brown. Maughan further recalls that the satchel appeared heavy. She could not recall if she attempted to lift the satchel herself or in the way it was put down by Bundy.
Ms. Maughan stated that sometime in the fall of 1974, near Thanksgiving, Ted Bundy had been away. She believed deer hunting with his girl friend’s father. Maughan states that Bundy arrived back at the apartments around 5:00 a..m. and as she watched him through the window, Bundy went into the trunk area of the V. W. and appeared to be uptight.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy stayed at the apartments until approx. the last weekend of September 1975 when he left to move closer to school.
Ms. Maughan stated that she could recall Bundy washing his car in Sept. of 1975 and at that particular time a new seat or cover had been put in his car.
Ms. Maughan also recalled that Ted Bundy bought Olympic beer and Schlitz; drank Johnny Walker scotch; was never present if any drugs were used by Bundy.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy once told her of catching a pick pocket in Seattle, Washington.
Ms. Maughan stated that Bundy had also told her that a few years ago (73-74) while he was drinking heavily and he had walked into a store and stolen a portable T.V. set and got away with the crime.
Excerpt from Ted Bundy: The Killer Next Door by Steven Winn and David Merrill
Ted’s charming ways and good looks gave him a steady social life when he wanted it. ‘Wanda Hancock’ from the apartment just below quickly became a good friend and an occasional date. After graduating from the University of Utah, she had taught high school English for one frustrating year. Following a stint in the Peace Corps, ‘Wanda’ moved back to Salt Lake City, back to her old friends living on First Avenue.
Ted became a regular with ‘Wanda’s’ little group of friends, trading stories with them in the evening as they passed a joint around her apartment. Sometimes the whole crew would pile into her red Toyota and go for a long drive, swigging creme de cacao straight from the bottle. (Ted’s VW wasn’t as convenient. More than once ‘Wanda’ complained about the way the front passenger seat slid back and forth freely).
‘Wanda’ came from a prominent Mormon family, but felt ill at ease in the narrow world of Mormon culture. Ted appeared to be the perfect compromise: conventional enough to be acceptable, intelligent, handsome, and not wrapped up in any one religion. They sometimes talked about their families and the pressures of growing up. ‘Wanda’ wrestling with her parents’ expectations of success and Ted describing, with forced casualness, the problems his illegitimacy had caused with some of his siblings. There had been a coolness with his stepfather too. The epithet “bastard” had left its mark.
‘Wanda’ was terrified when a rapist began victimizing the Avenues that summer and fall. She carried a hammer in her purse and decorated her apartment with objects heavy enough to use in an emergency. When bodies began turning up in the nearby canyons, ‘Wanda’ followed the stories with morbid fascination. She had Ted were watching television one night when the bulletin on Debi Kent’s disappearance led off the six o’clock news.
“It worries me to have a guy like that running loose. Why would a woman let something like that happen to her? I would kill him first,” she said forcefully, thinking perhaps of the hammer in her purse. When she turned to Ted, his eyes had grown very wide.
“You would kill him?”
“Yes, I would kill him.”
“Well, you don’t have to worry about that,” Ted remarked amiably, as if to allay her fears. ‘Wanda’ let the matter drop.
She was accustomed to his habit of dropping an odd remark or pulling some practical joke- all in the spirit of good fun. Sometimes he would sneak along the side of her first floor apartment and stare through the window without saying anything until she noticed him. It never failed to frighten her, especially with the Avenues’ rapist in the back of her mind. On occasion too, he would dart out from behind bushes, grab her, and hold her until her rigid body relaxed.
At one point Ted convinced ‘Wanda’ that he knew who the rapist was. In a decrepit apartment building down the street lived a group of men, transients in their younger days, now marking time on welfare in Salt Lake City. He cajoled ‘Wanda’ into walking over one day. Just as the two arrived, the man Ted told her about stepped out on the front porch and sat down.
“Go on, walk by, see what he’ll do.”
“Ted.” She turned on him, a note of tension in her voice. “I’m too nervous. I don’t want to.”
“Go on, walk by. Nothing’s going to happen.” A playful smile lit Ted’s face. She refused.
Although Ted was never a regular all-night guest at ‘Wanda’s’, the two enjoyed an easy sexual comradery. He teased her occasionally, claiming a great predilection for virgins.
“Well, you know ‘Wanda,’ I really prefer virgins. In fact, I can have one anytime I want.” He wore a mischievous grin. ‘Wanda’ joined in the playful spirit of the conversation. “Oh really, Ted? Aren’t they kind of hard to find nowadays?” ‘Wanda’ got up and shot a sidelong glance as she poured herself another Scotch.
Excerpt from Violent Mind by Dr. Al Carlisle:
[Pandora/’Judy’s’ mother said]:
“‘Tasha’ came up one night and said, “I don’t understand Bundy.” I said, “There’s something strange about him. You can never get close with that boy. He’s nice but he’s not warm.”
‘Tasha’ said she tried and tried to talk to him about his past and what his childhood was like but he never would. We tried to psych him out, wondering what in the world it was with him. ‘Tasha’ said Ted would ride his bicycle around Murray Park a lot. That’s a long ways from his apartment. ‘Tasha’ had gotten quite intimate with him. With both ‘Tasha’ and ‘Judy’, they thought a relationship was beginning to develop and then after a few dates he just dropped out of sight. I’m a person who likes to put my arms around people and when I put my arms around Bundy he just wasn’t warm.”
Excerpt from The Deliberate Stranger by Richard Larsen:
Over breakfast next morning at the Tri-Arcs Travelodge in Salt Lake City, Blakey, Fisher, and Vahsholtz were talking over details of their simultaneous reinvestigations—at Provo in the Laura Aime case, at Salt Lake City in the Smith murder and DaRonch kidnapping, and at Bountiful.
An attractive, well-dressed young woman had joined them for breakfast— ‘Judith Strachan,’ the young woman who had occupied an apartment near Bundy’s on The Avenues. She had been a close friend of Bundy and had provided much background information to Fisher and the other investigators. She had come to have deep suspicions of Bundy.
“How’s everything going for you?” asked Fisher, opening idle conversation. “Oh, fine,” she replied. During breakfast they continued their small talk. Opposite them, Blakey was talking business with Vahsholtz, figuring how to deploy their lone rental car that day. “And Mike,” said Blakey, “needs to get up to Logan to talk with the girl about the guy with the glasses.”
“Oh, glasses,” said Judith. “That reminds me! Did I ever tell you about the glasses?”
“No,” said Fisher, taking a bite of hotcake, “what glasses?”
“Well,” replied the young woman, “Ted always had a couple pairs of glasses which he used to wear once in a while.”
Fisher choked on his hotcake. Startled, Blakey dropped a cup, clattering onto the saucer, spilling his coffee. “Tell us about the glasses,” said Fisher, still choking.
“Well,” she began, “he had one pair, black rimmed, with just plain glass lenses, which he called his lawyer glasses. Then there was this other pair. They had kind of shaded, tinted lenses. Ted said he wore those because they made him look cool.”
Fisher finally managed to swallow. He, Blakey, and Vahsholtz exchanged stares. “So Theodore did have some glasses,” he muttered.
“And shaded, tinted lenses,” Vahsholtz added. “We better talk to the young lady at Logan.”
Excerpts from an interview with “Ted Bundy’s Ex-Girlfriend” by Laura Collins for The Daily Mail, 2-6-2019
(…) She recalled how she rode alongside him in the passenger seat of his Volkswagen Beetle and how she wondered at the fact that it was never properly fixed in place and would rock forward when he braked. And, perhaps most chilling of all, she revealed that he stopped by her apartment on the very night that he committed one of his murders – Halloween 1974. Now, age 71, she doubts that she will ever be able to put Bundy firmly in her past.
‘It had an impact. For a couple of years. I found it hard to trust people, if I was out I would be fearful, I’d have another drink to deal with it,’ she said. When Bundy was unmasked nothing was ever the same for her again, she explained. ‘I was very naïve when I met him. But once you’ve lost that innocence, once it’s gone, you can never get it back.’ Though they shared a bed more than once and lived in the same building, she would not discuss how intimate she and Bundy ultimately were.
They dated for several months but she described herself as ‘innocent’ and at the time of his arrest in Utah any romantic relationship was over and they were, she said, just friends. One of the elements of his crimes that has long haunted her is, she admitted, the fact that he must have got a sexual ‘thrill’ out of killing. She said: ‘It must have turned him on.’
Looking back, she realized that Bundy actually shared very little of himself. She said: ‘I never saw him cry. His laugh was forced. He never talked about his mother or his family or anything like that. He was very neat. He never hurt me. He was pleasant to be around.’ She doesn’t know what – if anything – she meant to Bundy. But she doubts that there was any sincere feeling or fondness. She reflected, ‘He played the part really well. ‘I think that I was a respectable front [for him]. As long as he was with me he was alright because I looked nice, my family was nice. I guess you can never know somebody for sure because who knows what’s in somebody’s head?’ She added:
‘He could hide in plain sight in any room. And these little innocent girls have no chance, no chance at all. If he came into this room right now he would sit down and be interested in you and what you were doing. And it was always like that when he was with people [he thought to be on his level] he enjoyed discussing things.’
On one such occasion she remembered Bundy telling her, ‘there’s no difference between right and wrong.’ I said: “Ted you’re in law school. How can you say that if you are in a profession that is always evaluating things for what’s right and what’s wrong?” He never really answered me but that just stuck out in my mind and that memory comes up year after year.
She and Bundy lived in the same building and, she recalled:
‘We didn’t go out because we didn’t have a lot of money but he would make a nice hamburger and we would sit in his kitchen with a little TV on the table and he would like to make hamburgers and we would listen to the news about all of the girls that were being murdered and disappeared.’
According to her, Bundy displayed no emotion when the stories aired. She said: ‘He wouldn’t make any reaction. I said to him one time, “If a man ever approached me, I wouldn’t let him touch me.” And he said, “You don’t have to worry about that.” And I did think about that later.
‘We would go play pool and I would sit as a passenger in his VW bug. I would sit in the seat that would rock forward when he would come to a stop sign or a stoplight. And I wouldn’t think anything of it.’ Bundy removed that seat to conceal the bodies of his victims. ‘What was interesting to me [after],’ she said, ‘was that I never saw any blood. I don’t know how he did it because the human body is full of blood.’
One who knew Bundy at that time told police that he spent hours cleaning his car – a task that confused the witness given the vehicle’s generally poor condition. But Bundy, according to his ex, was ‘a clean freak.’
She also remembered that he had a collection of sharp kitchen knives of which he was very proud. ‘He would talk about his collection of knives and apparently that’s what he would use [on the women],’ she said. ‘I’ll never forget one night I stayed overnight and I woke up in the middle of the night and I said: “Ted, where are you? What are you doing?” And he was through in the kitchen and he said, “Oh just looking at my knives.” I thought about that later and I thought, “Wow, I just escaped being killed. Except that he knew better than to do it in his own apartment.”‘
‘There was a girl who disappeared on Halloween night and was killed. And on Halloween night he came to my apartment when I was asleep because my door was partially opened because the rug was preventing it from closing. I was in bed and he came in and said, “I want to tell you that your door is opened and unlocked.” He woke me up. And I said, “Oh thanks Ted,” you know. He did a good deed and he also killed someone that night and I didn’t notice a thing.’
There was one occasion though that she believes she saw a flash of the real Bundy. She said:
‘One night I parked my car in the driveway and if he had wanted to get out it would have stopped him so I told went to tell him I wasn’t going to be there long. So I knocked on the door and he answered and he was holding a drink in one hand and a cigarette in the other. And he had this grin that was plastered, I would say, across his face. He wasn’t drunk. It was forced convivial. And I just wanted to get out of there. Later I wondered if that was how he looked when he worked himself into a murderous rage.’
But as much as she could not detect anything sinister about Bundy at the time, she admitted, that when all of the hideous allegations tumbled out she knew in her heart that they were true. By this time, she said, she and Bundy were just friends.
‘The officer sat me down and pointed out all these coincidences. He wanted to know if I heard anything because Ted could actually leave our house, jumping off the fire escape and driving out the driveway so I wouldn’t even know it. I could hear him coming down the stairs which were old and creaky and so he could hide his movements a lot by coming out that way. Then the police would ask me if I knew he left town on certain weekends and I did because he would tell me when he went to Colorado.’
By the time he went on trial for that crime, not even a friendship existed between him and his former girlfriend. She admitted she was afraid of the man with whom she had once enjoyed those cozy TV dinners. Bundy had been released on bail to await trial and, she said, that same week he came to visit her where she worked. She recalled that all the girls she worked with were taken by the handsome stranger who asked to speak to her in private.
‘I just, you know [by then] I just couldn’t relate to it. We went out into the hall to talk and while we were there he said to me, “Do you really think I could do all the things that they’re saying I did?” And I said, “I can’t believe any friend of mine could do that.” And that was that. But he knew I think. And I knew [that I did].’
After that, she said, she saw less and less of Bundy who immersed himself in the Mormon community that had embraced him and championed his innocence. She said: ‘He gravitated towards his friends in the LDS church because they supported him one hundred percent and felt like he was innocent of all charges and he could not have done what they said he did. Whereas I felt that he was guilty of all charges.’
And for the first time she was truly frightened of Bundy and of the thinly-veiled threats he made against her when he visited her at home during that same period. ‘I had a chandelier that had some [sharp] points on it and Ted said to me, “Have you ever hit your head on that?” And I said, “No.” That was when he became pretty hostile,’ she said. ‘I had a macramé rope hanger – this was the 70s – hanging over the door and in my dining room and [that same night] he said to me, “That looks like a strong rope.” To her they were ‘terrifying comments.’
After Bundy left that night she called her parents, locked up her apartment and fled. ‘I never saw him again really to talk to him or anything. I just followed his exploits around the country. You never knew if he might come back. Where I was I would just lock up and be watchful.’
Today his ex admitted:
‘I am opposed to the death penalty but I remember when I woke one morning to hear that Ted Bundy was in Florida and was facing the death penalty and that they had finally made the decision to kill him I was glad. I had never said that about the death penalty before. But Ted was such a menace to society and he could hide it. It was a relief to know that he was no longer on this earth.’
Leslie Knudson, Salt Lake City 1975
Pseudonym: “Linda Brown” (Winn & Merrill)
Excerpt from the notes of Salt Lake County Detective Jerry Thompson
In June of this year [Carol Booth, a former neighbor of Ted’s] had a party at her home where she is living now and Ted was invited to this party; and it was here that she introduced him to another girlfriend of hers, Leslie Knudson. She states that Leslie is a school teacher and that Leslie has gone with him several times from June through August. Leslie states that she had no more contact with him after August, apparently when he was arrested, for some unknown reason, she does not know why he never contacted her again. She states she doesn’t know if Leslie would be willing to talk to us because many of the news media have already confronted her. She states that Leslie is a real nice person and she believes she would. She states that her and Leslie went to the Seattle area sometime in July or the first part of August to see a friend of hers, and at that time Ted asked them if they would go over to Tacoma and bring his 14 year old brother back with them to Salt Lake. She stated they did bring him back some time in August and he was going to stay with Ted for about two weeks. Leslie could give me more information on this.
Excerpt from the notes of Salt Lake County Detective Jerry Thompson
A Leslie Knudson, as mentioned in a previous follow-up, was a girlfriend of subject Bundy. She is a high school teacher. I have attempted to contact this individual numerous times and have been unable to connect. I had Detective Beal from the Bountiful Police Department also attempt to contact her. He did make contact with her. He asked her if she would contact me or if she would talk to me, or if she would talk to him about Bundy. She stated that she did not want to talk to us about him at all, that she did not want to get involved. But she stated that she would think it over and she would get back with me. She has not got back with me as of yet and I have attempted many times to contact her and have been unable to do so. Paul Van Dam, the County Attorney, states he knows the individual, and he is trying also to make contact with her. If she then refuses to talk to me, we will subpoena her in to see what she has to say.
Follow-Up Report by Officer J. Healey, Seattle Police Department
At 1000 hrs talked to David Knudson, who is staying with [a friend in Seattle]. Mr. Knudson is just up from Salt Lake City, and will be staying with [his friend] for about two weeks, while Mr. Knudson attempts to find a radio reporting job and a place to live in the Seattle area.
Mr. Knudson’s ex-wife, Leslie Knudson (W-F-33, blonde hair), who remains on good terms with Mr. Knudson, had Bundy visiting her and staying with her in her place on Redondo Street in Salt Lake City just prior to Bundy’s arrest for first degree murder, kidnapping, etc.
Leslie met Bundy at a party thrown by Salt Lake prosecutor Paul Van Dam in Salt Lake City, and was courted by Bundy for 6-8 weeks, up to the time of the arrest. This was around August and July of 1975. Bundy was apparently attending the University of Utah Law School during this time.
Mr. Knudson saw Bundy at Leslie’s place twice, both times when he was visiting his six-year-old son, Joshua, of whom Leslie has custody. The first time Bundy took Joshua and a few neighborhood boys swimming (“he was always doing things like that”). The second time Mr. Knudson saw Bundy vacuuming the inside of Bundy’s tan Volkswagen Bug, with the seats out. Mr. Knudson stated to me that this struck him as being a little strange, even at the time, because he had called Leslie earlier and she had told Mr. Knudson that Bundy was out cleaning his car. Mr. Knudson thought to himself, upon seeing Bundy cleaning his VW, “why would anyone clean a ratty Volkswagen so often?”
Mr. Knudson stated that he had no other contact with Bundy. Leslie talked to prosecutor Paul Van Dam and the Salt Lake City police about Bundy after his arrest. She told them that Bundy became depressed and took to drinking more beer after a certain point in their courtship. She came to know later that this point in time coincided with Bundy’s original arrest for speeding, etc. Bundy did not even tell Leslie about this arrest. She learned about it from the newspapers, after Bundy’s felony arrest.
Salt Lake City authorities have had no contact with Mr. Knudson.
Excerpt from the Presentence Investigation Report by Donald Hull, 1976
Leslie Knudson was interviewed and reported that she had sexual intercourse with Ted Bundy on several occasions and described these relations as normal as far as she was concerned. She stated that she met Ted Bundy at a party given by a friend in June 1975. She began dating him shortly thereafter and continued dating him off and on until late August of 1975. She stated that she viewed Bundy initially as fairly sociable although somewhat aloof. She claims that at the party he did not drink much and seemed quite nice. Miss Knudson stated that she had been married once previously and was divorced a very short period of time prior to meeting Bundy. She said on their dates together that she, Ted, and her seven year old son, Josh, visited the mountains for picnics and also went to drive-in movies. Additionally, they would spend time together in her apartment. She stated that Ted always allowed her to take her son with them and enjoyed acting as a father-surrogate to him. She stated that Ted told her on some occasions that he had political aspirations and wanted to be Governor of Washington State.
She said that Ted drank heavily by her standards and was moody and talked frequently about Miss Kloepfer to her. Specifically, she indicated that it was his belief and feelings that Liz had lost respect for Ted due to his “playing around with other girls.” Ted also confided in Miss Knudson that Liz “dropped him” in late August of 1975, shortly after his arrest. Miss Knudson stated that she broke off her relationship with Ted Bundy in late August 1975 because he became more and more moody and made the statement to her after her arrest on August 16, 1975, that “my world is falling apart.” She stated that he began wandering around verbally and physically and seemed depressed. He also began drinking more heavily, and on one occasion she stated he passed out drunk on her living room floor. She felt she could not handle this kind of relationship and consequently terminated the relationship. She claims that other than that he did not seem particularly unusual.
The following are excerpts from a 2019 interview with Leslie Knudson. I did the research to find Leslie, who had long since changed her name and moved away from Utah. Chris Mortensen used the information I sent him to contact her, then kindly shared their conversation with me.
I knew he was strange. There was no getting around that. I could tell in his eyes… there was something going on there. And it was really obvious in his. Now I see somebody like that and I say nope, go the other way. I can read a lot in people’s eyes. I don’t always know what it means. But his were dark. (…)
He stood me up to go to Colorado one weekend. That was one of the reasons I broke up with him. I just wasn’t used to being treated that way. We were supposed to go to a barbeque or something and he stood me up. I figured it out later… he was very busy evidently, then. (…)
He liked parks. He scoped in parks. He knew all the parks in town. I said, “why are you looking over there?” I think he said, “it looks like a girl I know. She looks like Liz’s daughter.” I suspect he was looking for victims. (…)
He was arrested when I was with him. Freaked me out when he came on the tube. I was like, whoa! What do I do now? I had to cover the screen– I got up and started dusting the TV, my son would have been old enough to recognize him. That was how I learned about it. (…) Afterwards he came to return some albums. I think he wanted to see if I was still approachable. I never saw him again. He never tried to contact me again. Maybe he read something in me, that I was freaked out. I just wanted him to leave. I was worried about my reputation, whether it would affect my job. (…)
He told me he was adopted, I don’t know if that was true or not. I thought maybe something really terrible happened to this person, to screw him up like that, he was warped. I didn’t understand at all; he was so sane on the surface. I said, ‘something is really wrong with this person.’ (…)
He got a job as campus police, and he loved that uniform. He liked the power, big guy in that police suit. He really felt invulnerable with it on, ‘I’m one of you guys,’ you know. He had that uniform and he didn’t want to take it off! He seemed to want to be in that uniform instead of changing into street clothes. It was strange behavior to me. I don’t want somebody who wants to strut around in a police uniform. (…)
I don’t believe he ever lied to me. I must not have asked him what he did in Colorado when he stood me up though. I was really surprised; I think he was the first guy who ever stood me up. (…)
I got dressed up to go out, and he’d fall asleep. I didn’t like that, no thanks. Half a beer, and he’d be gone. He wasn’t drunk or anything, but he’d fall asleep on the floor in the living room. There were so many things about him that I thought were unusual. (…)
We had a double date with my friend, and we went up to Park City. There was a police roadblock, and I was driving, but he wasn’t going to go through it. He didn’t want to answer any questions. He wouldn’t go through the roadblock. We did a detour so he didn’t have to go through it. (…)
The police wanted my vacuum because he cleaned his car in my driveway and borrowed my vacuum to do it. Pulled the whole thing apart. And I thought, what is he doing? Why do you have to pull all the seats out and everything? He didn’t do a good enough job, as it turns out. I got my Electrolux back. I don’t know if the police found anything. (…)
I remember when I met him at this party, he was in the corner, in the dark. Just hanging out in the corner in the dark. That was the first time I noticed him. He was a good looking guy, no doubt about that. Very athletic looking. My parents were very proud of me. I took him to a family reunion, so all my relatives got to meet him. That was over Fourth of July. My mother called me up later and she said, “how could you?” and I said “give me a break Mom, do you think I’m looking for serial killers?” (…)
He wasn’t very forthcoming, but I did meet his parents in Tacoma. I was the kind men liked to present to their parents. (…)
He had many many opportunities to do me harm. I don’t know how I escaped. I’ve never gone out of my way to find reading material on Ted. I don’t want to know any of the details. I don’t want to know any of the bad stuff. I don’t need the visuals.
Ann Swenson, 1975-1976
Aka “Sharon Auer” (Rule); “Kim Andrews” (Kendall); “Sue Monsen” (Winn & Merrill)
Ann Swenson met Ted at a Mormon church function in early February 1975. She dated him through March of that year. In July 1975, she began work as a legal secretary for attorney John O’Connell, and served as a witness for the defense during Bundy’s kidnapping trial in early 1976. According to Ann Rule, she became emotionally involved with Bundy again after his conviction. Rule incorrectly claims that Swenson was a law student.
Excerpt from The Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule:
…he met many new women in Utah. There was ‘Sharon Auer’, who was a law student; another pretty girl who lived in Bountiful, just north of Salt Lake City. Much later, when I would see him again, when he had become the number one suspect in so many killings and disappearances, he asked me, “Why should I want to attack women? I had all the female companionship I wanted. I must have slept with at least a dozen women that first year in Utah, and all of them went to bed with me willingly.”
One of Ted’s women friends in Salt Lake City was ‘Sharon Auer.’ She put him in touch with attorney John O’Connell, a tall, bearded man who affected a cowboy hat and boots.
As far as women went, Ted always had a back-up. Even as he sat in the Salt Lake County Jail, unaware that [Liz] had talked volubly about him ‘to detectives, he had the emotional support of ‘Sharon Auer.’ ‘Sharon’ seemed to have fallen in love with him. I would soon realize that it was not prudent to mention ‘Sharon’s’ name to [Liz], or to speak of [Liz] to ‘Sharon.’ It is interesting to note that through all the trials, through all the years of black headlines that would label Ted a monster, and worse, he would always have at least one woman entranced with him, living for the few moments she could visit him in jail, running errands, proclaiming his innocence. The women would change as time passed; apparently, the emotions he provoked in them would not.
Ted was enthusiastic about Hanson’s reputation as a fair-minded jurist; he truly believed that he would walk away a free man. He had John O’Connell on his side, a veteran of twenty-nine murder trials, and considered to be one of the top attorneys in Utah. He had friends in the courtroom: Louise and Johnnie Bundy, [Liz], others who had flown in from Seattle, those who still believed in him from Utah: ‘Sharon Auer’ and the friends who had convinced him to join the Mormon Church shortly before his first arrest.
We talk about ‘Sharon’ and [Liz]. He has known ‘Sharon’ for more than a year, and she visits him faithfully every Wednesday and Sunday. “Don’t mention ‘Sharon’ to [Liz]. ‘Sharon’s’ jealous of [Liz], and [Liz] doesn’t really know about ‘Sharon.'” I promise that I won’t involve myself in his complicated romantic life, and I marvel that he can keep two intense relationships going while he’s locked up with a possible life sentence hanging over him. Ted still wants to write, and he feels that he can get writing out to me through ‘Sharon.’ ‘Sharon’ regularly carries papers, legal briefs, in with her when she visits. She could carry his writing out and send it to me.
On June 5th, [Liz] came to my home to spend the evening. She was apprehensive about ‘Sharon,’ more aware of ‘Sharon’s’ relationship with Ted than he realized. I was in the middle of a situation that made me uneasy; I didn’t want to cover for Ted if he was deluding [Liz], but I didn’t want to tell her about ‘Sharon’s’ twice weekly visits to the Utah State Prison either. I suspected that I was being subtly manipulated in keeping [Liz] bound to Ted. I wrote to him about [Liz] on June 6th:
“I think that she is aware of ‘Sharon’s’ relationship to you, but I stressed that I really know nothing about it, and I don’t know, and I don’t want to know. When the time comes to thinking of everyday conflicts, you will have to get your act together.”
When Louise Bundy returned from Ted’s sentencing, she had made the tactical error of repeating over and over to [Liz] her feelings that ‘Sharon’ was a “lovely person.” [Liz] had finally deduced that ‘Sharon’ was much more to Ted than an errand girl. When I spoke to her in August, 1976, [Liz] was vacillating between saying good-bye to Ted forever-not because of the charges against him, but because he had lied to her about ‘Sharon’- and continuing to support him with her love.
On October 26th I received a letter from ‘Sharon Auer,’ who enclosed a brief note that Ted had sent her to send to me. ‘Sharon’ was still very much a part of his life, even though his letters to me extolled no one but [Liz]. ‘Sharon’ was horrified at the maximum security cell where Ted was being held, although her impressions of the “hole” were based on Ted’s description of it as he was allowed no visitors. He would be there fifteen days, and ‘Sharon’ was angry that he had received this harshest punishment possible for such a minor infraction as having a social security card on his person. She wrote that she was trying to write him three or four letters a day. “The bastards may not let me visit, but they’re sure going to tire of carrying mail to him …” Reading her letter, I was again bemused and somewhat dismayed at what the denouement might one day be when those two women who loved Ted realized they had been deluded into believing that each was the only one.
‘Sharon Auer’ was merely expedient; she was there in Utah when he needed someone to run errands and bring supplies into prison, but he left her behind when he left Point-of-the-Mountain.
Excerpt from The Phantom Prince by Elizabeth “Kendall”
November 24 was Ted’s birthday, and I called him at the house in Salt Lake City where he was staying with friends from the Mormon Church. Since he wasn’t home, I left a message for him to call me, and when he didn’t, jealousy took over again. He had mentioned a friend named ‘Kim’ that his parents stayed with when they were in Salt Lake City. She had been a great support to him and had done errands for him while he was in jail. They had been “just friends” for about a year, he told me. As an afterthought, he told me that she was his lawyer’s secretary. I tried to be mature when he talked about her. But when I couldn’t reach him on his birthday, maturity went out the window.
One night we were at Aaron and Debra’s. drinking beer and eating chicken enchiladas, when Ted got a long distance call. I knew it was ‘Kim Andrews,’ his Salt Lake City friend. He went into the bedroom to take the call, and I marched in right behind him. He paid no attention to me, so I went back into the living room and picked up the phone there. It was obvious from the conversation how deeply they cared for each other. “When are you coming back?” she wanted
to know. “Soon,” Ted answered. I stormed out of the house…
Salt Lake City was ‘Kim Andrews’ territory, and I knew Ted would have a hard time balancing the two of us. She was to testify at the trial, and Ted had gone on and on about what a great friend she was to do this and what a sacrifice it was for her to be publicly identified with him. The day she testified, she was identified in the press as a “girlfriend” of Ted’s. She testified that she had spent a great deal of time in Ted’s apartment and that she had never seen a pair of patent leather
shoes there, nor had she ever seen him wear patent leather shoes.
Ted and his attorneys left first; the press was waiting for them. I left with the Bundys by way of a back elevator, and we walked the short distance to O’Connell’s office. There the Bundys were greeted warmly by ‘Kim Andrews,’ a pretty blond about twenty four. All I got from her was a piercing glare. When Ted arrived he didn’t introduce me to anyone, just let me sit by myself feeling left out and ugly in my wrinkled suit and uncurled hair. We waited in the lawyer’s office because it was thought that the judge might render a quick decision and Ted had to be available when he did. I spent a lot of time walking around the block or sitting outside on the steps of the building. Occasionally when I would come back in, Ted would be sitting on the edge of ‘Kim’s’ desk and they would be laughing about something.
The day he appeared in court I heard something on TV that made me fire off a furious letter to him:
They always make me grit my teeth, but this one got me on my glass jaw. They went on and on about the court proceedings and then said the judge had ordered that Mrs. Bundy and Bundy’s girlfriend be allowed to visit with you in private. Since I’m up here and Judge Hanson was down there, I surmised there must be two girlfriends. Good old ‘Kim.’ What would we
do without her?
This was the thousand-millionth time I had felt this way about Ted and another woman. I wrote Ted:
I am a mature (reasonably) person and can accept things as they are. If I only know how things honestly are. Of course, what I am talking about is your relationship with ‘Kim Andrews.’ I don’t like the way I throw up my defenses at the slightest possibility that someone is going to tell me something I thought I knew but didn’t. It’s like being emotionally shell- shocked. So I have a deal to propose. Will you candidly tell me how it is? And whatever else there is to tell about things that might fall out of the sky to shock me. And for my part, I won’t bring it up ever again.
‘Kim Andrews’… is a loyal and close friend. She has volunteered to do things for me which no one else down here has volunteered to do. …If she had replaced you, I would tell you. If I loved her and no longer loved you, I would tell you. But she hasn’t and I don’t.”
It had been a battle to get to see Ted. The prison rule was that a single male prisoner could have only one unmarried female on his list of people cleared to visit, and Ted already had listed ‘Kim Andrews.’ The prison officials told Ted that I could not visit him unless he took ‘Kim’s’ name off the list and put mine there in its place. As jealous as I was of ‘Kim,’ I didn’t want her to abandon him.
A Note to Captain Pete Hayward, undated
Ann Swenson, O’Connell’s secretary and Bundy friend, left S.L. 10 days ago– quit her job and said she was going to parents in New Jersey.
Special thanks to Chris Mortensen, Rob Dielenberg, Leslie Knudson, and the Hayward family, as well as all of the authors mentioned in this post.