In the late evening of January 14, 1978, several witnesses described a strange man at Sherrod’s Disco, a night club popular with students and located next door to the Chi Omega Sorority House. The man appeared awkward, out of place with the college crowd, and seemed to be at the club just to leer at the dancing young women. Just hours afterwards, in the early morning hours of January 15, a similarly dressed subject entered the Chi Omega House and brutally attacked four young women in their beds, killing two of them. In the days following the murders, the Sherrod’s witnesses came forward to describe their experience with the peculiar man they’d seen that night at the disco.
Leon County Sheriff’s Office
January 19, 1978
Interview re: Jefferson St. Homicide
This deputy interviewed the following persons:
- Vivian Philips
- Anna Inglett
- Mary Ann Picano
- Connie Hastings
- Bertina Sixto
The above named persons stated that on 14 January 1978 at approximately 10pm they parked their car in the parking lot behind the Chi Omega sorority house and went dancing at Sherrod’s Disco which is adjacent to the sorority house. Mary Ann Picano states that she was asked to dance with the following described subject: white male in his mid to late 30s, approximately 5 feet 8 inches, 155-160 lbs and short brown hair. Subject had a rough face with acne scars. Ms. Picano stated that she really did not want to dance with him as all of the girls had observed him earlier just standing around and acting very strange. He appeared to be by himself and out of place in a college crowd. She stated that he looked like an ex-convict. She danced with him and during the dance she tried to avoid as much contact as possible and this white male did not try to engage her in conversation. After the dance was over the white male resumed standing by the stairway looking at the crowd.
The girls left the disco at approximately 11:45pm and said that as they were going out of the door they observed two white males standing off to the side but did not pay much attention to them. Two of the girls were ahead of the other girls and passed the driveway going to the parking lot behind Chi Omega. The girls in the rear asked the two girls ahead to come back and “let’s go down this side.”
After all five girls observed the photographs that appeared in the Tallahassee Democrat on 16 Jan 1978 it was noted that Mary Ann Picano resembled Margaret Bowman, one of the victims, very much, and that Anna Inglett resembled Lisa Levy. Based on the resemblance of the photographs and the fact the girls, if they were being observed, appeared to have gone into the sorority house after leaving Sherrod’s decided to call the Sheriff’s Office to report their activities on the night of the homicide.
Leon County Sheriff’s Office
Date: Feb. 28, 1978
The following information was received from Thomas Trice and Mark Ihlefeld. Both subjects are students at FSU and the substance of their statements were as follows:
On 1-15-78 at approx. 0015 hours they had occasion to be at Sherrod’s Disco on Jefferson St. Trice was checking out the door to see if they were going to have to pay a cover charge to get in, when he observed two white females leaving the establishment. He paid particular attention to one of them. He advised that he recognized the girl as Margaret Bowman from the pictures that ran in the following day’s paper.
Trice and Ihlefeld advised that they also saw a suspicious white male just sitting outside the entrance of Sherrod’s while they were making comments about how good looking the girls were. Trice advised that he spoke to this subject (something about the girls), and that he mumbled something back but he could not understand what he said. They described the clothing he was wearing as a dark colored knit cap, dark coat like a pea jacket, and light colored pants.
They last saw the girls walking towards the Chi O sorority house. Trice and Ihlefeld left Sherrod’s and did not return. Trice advised that he would consider being subjected to hypnosis should the need arise.
Leon County Sheriff’s Office
Date: Feb. 28, 1978
The following is a tape recorded statement taken by Investigator Dee Phillips at the Leon County Sheriff’s Office. This statement is being taken from Thomas Trice and Mark Ihlefeld.
Phillips: Tom would you relate to me exactly what y’all were doing on Saturday night and the early morning hours of Sunday morning, January 15?
Trice: Well, we were going out to have a good time, going out to go bar hopping, to see if we couldn’t find, uh, some company I guess you might say.
Phillips: Who is we?
Trice: Mark, myself, and a friend of mine named Chris Kellogg. And we decided we’d go try out the new discotheque that we had heard about through some friends, which is Sherrod’s, and we had prior been to a party, uh, and had reached Sherrod’s at about 12, I guess 12:10, and parked the car behind Sherrods and I got out to go check to see if there was a cover charge, because we were all fairly short of money and we were looking forward to getting drunk more than anything.
Phillips: Were you drunk at the time?
Trice: No, we weren’t. We knew we wouldn’t get drunk on the amount of money we had, but we wanted to go out and have a drink. And because when I got to the door, I found out that the cover charge was more than all of us could afford, for all of us to get in. I was on my way back to telling everybody that we weren’t gonna be able to afford to go in and drink. And I noticed two females coming out of the bar and I noticed it was awful crowded. I mentioned something to the doorman about why were they charging after 12 o’clock when the place was already crowded. It didn’t seem to make sense and the girls that were leaving said it was worth the money to go in because it was a good time, but it was really crowded, and that was one of the reasons they were leaving.
By that time, we were all three standing there. I noticed the girls walking away, and I said, well I really hate to leave this place. And I made a gesture of, you know, “woooow” or something at the girls because I thought they were really good looking. And they turned around and we looked at em, and then we left, and as we were leaving, I did notice there was a person. I had noticed prior to this that there was one person sitting outside by himself, and as we left I remember saying something to him about making note of the girls and then I don’t know whether he actually mumbled something back, but he did say something I didn’t quite catch. And as we were leaving I made note to my friend, Mark, that the guy wasn’t very friendly. He didn’t speak too much. And we left.
Phillips: Can you describe to me the girls that you saw? The ones you made note about how good looking they were and so forth?
Trice: Uh, the one girl that I noticed the most was an extremely good looking dark haired girl, fairly long hair, she was wearing red lipstick and she was I’d say exceptionally good looking. The other girl had light hair, blonde, and hers wasn’t straight, it was more or less in some kind of fashion. It wasn’t just a straight hairdo. She was wearing a silver belt, one of those new, I don’t know what you call them. Reflector type belts. They look like spacey type stuff. Thin, disco type clothes. I believe we made remark to the fact that the girls were sorority girls by the way they dressed. We just kinda categorized them as being not particularly what we could actually talk to. I don’t wanna say pick up on, but I guess that’s the idea when you go out and you’re gonna just have a few drinks and sit around with a few girls or something, but we knew they weren’t our type anyway. They weren’t gonna waste their time on us. We weren’t dressed up to go out to a disco.
Phillips: In reference to the guy that was sitting on the bench outside. Was it cold that night?
Trice: Yeah, it was extremely cold that night. It was in the twenties.
Phillips: Was he sitting there when you first rounded the corner enroute to the door?
Trice: He was.
Phillips: And he was still sitting there in the same place when you left?
Trice: He was.
Phillips: Can you tell me everything that you can recall about him?
Trice: He was more or less bent over, either with his hand in his coat pockets, and he was just sitting there. He had on a ski type hat, one of those wool hats, the type with the little fluff ball on top. Well, I’m not positive whether it had the little ball on it or not. But it was that type of hat. Dark colored. He had on a blue pea coat, navy type coat. I remember him having a mustache. When we were standing around watching the girls walk away, and made note to their exceptional good looks by hooting at em, they turned around. He looked up and looked at em and they turned around and looked at us. Other than that, he actually was looking straight down, but he was looking just kinda spaced out. And we made note that the guy wasn’t extremely friendly. He kinda mumbled something.
Phillips: Where were the girls headed, when you last saw em?
Ihelfeld: All I remember is the fact that they were coming out the door and walking down the street, like Tom said. They were headed east.
Phillips: After that first meeting with those girls, did you have occasion to possibly recognize them from a photograph or anything else since that time?
Trice: Yes, I did, the next morning when I saw the newspaper, about what had happened, I remember noticing that I’d seen this girl, the Bowman girl, either somewhere before on campus and at the time I couldn’t remember where it was, immediately. As the story progressed, cause some friends had come over and let us in on the news that was going around of what had happened. And we had slept in late and were just finding out, waking up, and finding out what was going on.
Finally, it struck me that I’d seen her the night before and I made mention of it that I’d seen that girl and I couldn’t remember where it was and then I finally realized that I saw her last night at the place. And it kinda bothered me that I’d seen her that night and nobody wanted to believe me. They said “sure you did” I don’t know whether that’s typical or not. I just remember me saying I know I saw her there last night. That she was one of the two girls that was leaving and I tried to help Mark and Chris remember. Also the situation that these two girls in the paper were the two girls that I saw leaving and they couldn’t at the time positively identify their faces, with the girls and at the time I was skeptical myself, because I’d thought well it’s just a coincidence. But since then after seeing the girls’ faces, I feel more sure of that, and I could almost positively say that those two girls were the girls I saw leaving.
Phillips: Have you ever been inside or around the Chi Omega Sorority House?
Trice: No sir. I haven’t. I didn’t even know that was the Chi Omega House until this thing happened.
Phillips: Have you ever known anybody by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy?
End of statement.
Tallahassee Police Department
Interview with Carla Black
June 19, 1978
This writer contacted Ms. Black by telephone. She states that she and her friend Valerie Stone went to Sherrod’s on Jan 14, 1978 and stayed until the early morning on Jan 15. Black observed a white male subject which aroused her suspicions, because neither he nor his clothing fit into the crowd that frequents Sherrod’s.
Ms. Black states that this subject appeared to be alone and stood near the dance floor on some steps watching the other patrons of Sherrod’s. He was described as about 5’11, slender build. The subject’s clothing struck her as particularly unusual. He wore dark trousers and a light colored shirt. The pants appeared to be “baggy” and “old fashioned,” possibly of a knit material which was old or stretched. The pants were worn unusually high and were possibly too large because they “gathered up” where the belt was tightened. The shirt was a light colored button up type. The subject’s shoes appeared to be a black leather, old-fashioned lace-up type. He appeared “not well kept”—either dirty or sweaty. His hair was slicked back and would have appeared longer if styled and blow dried.
Ms. Black has seen numerous photographs of Theodore Bundy in the newspapers and states that there is a close similarity between the hairline and forehead of the two, but she cannot recall the other facial features well enough to make a more definite comparison. She is unable to recall any other people at Sherrod’s except Valerie Stone.
The writer contacted Valerie Stone. She states that she did not notice any suspicious persons at Sherrod’s and does not recall the person described by Carla Black.
Leon County Sheriff’s Office
Death Investigation Report by Dee Phillips
July 6, 1978
On June 28, 1978 this writer and Investigator Grady Smith interviewed Terri Murphy at the State Attorney’s Office in Tallahassee, Florida. Miss Murphy is a member of the Chi Omega sorority and was living in the sorority house on Jan. 14. She was also employed at Sherrod’s and working there on that night.
Miss Murphy stated that she recalled several older single men being in the establishment on that night. She recalled three individuals in particular. All three of these men were standing in the same approximate location, but only two of them appeared to be together. She recalled the third man as being there by himself and described his clothing as a dark colored turtle neck and blue jeans.
Miss Murply advised that these three subjects were standing toward the south end of the building, next to the bathrooms. This was the same end of the bar that she was working that night. As she passed them on occasion one of the men asked her if she would get him a drink, to which she agreed. She stated that this was the third subject, who was by himself, and further that he was overly polite, and appeared to be in his early thirties. Miss Murphy said she was reasonably sure that she could recognize this person if she saw him again.
At 2:35 or 2:40 am on Jan 15, Miss Murphy got off work and went to the sorority house. She found the back door secured and saw sure it was locked after she entered. She went to bed around 3:00 am and did not hear anything unusual. She woke up after the assaults were discovered.
The witness was shown a black and white photographic line-up. After looking at each picture, she eliminated all but two of the subjects, at which time she stated that she had seen both of these subjects in Sherrod’s in the past. Miss Murphy was then asked if either one of these men was the one which she had seen on the night of Jan. 14. She looked at the two photographs again and then stated that the man in photograph #5 (Theodore Robert Bundy) looked like the man she had seen.
At this point, I asked Miss Murphy if she knew this subject or if it was in her knowledge who the subject might be. She replied no. I further asked if when she first looked at the photographs did she have any idea if it was Bundy’s photograph that she was looking at. She again replied no.
At this time the interview was concluded.
Leon County Sheriff’s Office
Continuation Report by Dee Phillips
July 7, 1978
The following is a report of supplemental information pertaining to this case. On June 29, 1978, this writer and Investigator Grady Smith began interviewing the Mary Ann Picano and Connie Hastings at the State Attorney’s Office in Tallahassee.
During the interview, each related the following information. Both were at Sherrod’s on the night of January 14 from approximately 10pm until 12:30am. While there, both observed a white male standing alone watching the rest of the people. This subject asked Miss Picano to dance, which she reluctantly agreed to do. Prior to going out on the dance floor Miss Picano turned to Miss Hastings and said, “I think I’m going to dance with an ex-con.” This statement made Miss Hastings pay particular attention to the subject while he was dancing. Picano stated that while dancing the subject attempted to make small talk with her, and was overly polite, but he made her very nervous, and she tried to avoid eye contact with him. She further stated that after dancing with the subject, she felt so uneasy that she and the other girls left Sherrod’s. Miss Picano states that she could recall that the man was wearing dark colored clothing, and was probably in his early thirties, had medium brown hair, approximately 5’10-6’, 160-165 lbs, and medium complexion. When shown the black and white photographic lineup, Picano advised that the man in photograph #5 (Theodore Robert Bundy) had the same expression on his face and the same eyes as the man that danced with her, but she could not be sure that this was him (“That’s the exact look on the man’s face as the one I danced with. It’s the same look on his face, it’s the same eyes, but I just can’t be sure.”)
Miss Hastings gave basically the same physical description as Miss Picano, adding that his hair was medium brown and curly. She also recalled that the subject appeared to be wearing “layered” clothing, as if he was wearing clothes underneath the outside clothing. Miss Hastings was shown the black and white photographic line up. After looking at each picture carefully, Hasting selected photograph #5 (Bundy) and advised this writer and Investigator Smith that the face of this person looked exactly like that of the person she saw Miss Picano dancing with. This writer then asked Miss Hastings if she recognized the subject in the photograph or if it was in her knowledge who the subject might be. She replied no. She was further asked if when she first looked at the photograph did she know or think it might be Theodore Robert Bundy. She again replied no. Then she said “Is it him?”
At this time the interviews were concluded.
Tallahassee Police Department
August 18, 1978
This is an interview with Vernon Vokus. The witness works for Sherrod’s and attends FSU. Mr. Vokus recalls himself and Byron Underwood standing outside Sherrod’s at about 2:30am on 1/15/78. According to Mr. Vokus, Underwood pointed out a subject in the driveway to the Chi-O house (on the west side). The subject appeared to be about 30 years old, and was possibly wearing brown attire. The subject hung around, sort of prowling, in the driveway near the house for about 5 minutes, then suddenly was gone.
Tallahassee Police Department
October 19, 1978
This is a Tallahassee Police Department interview with Carla Black. The witness is a FSU student and a part-time employee for the FSU Registrar, Graduation Department.
Ms. Black was in Sherrod’s from 12:30am January 15, 1978 until the business closed at approximately 2:00am.
According to Ms. Black, at about 12:30am on January 15, 1978 she and a sorority sister of hers, Valerie, went to Sherrod’s. They entered into the premises and after getting a drink she was standing around the area in the northwest portion of the building, the area that has an exit directly adjacent to the Chi-O House. Her attention was drawn to a man who appeared out of place, that is, he did not fit in with the typical college crowd. His dress and age along with his greasy looking appearance made him stand out to her. This subject kept staring at her and she was afraid that he would ask her to dance. Ms. Black was able to observe this him for 15-30 minutes in a lighted area near the dance floor.
Ms. Black states that the man kept staring at her and that she would look out the corner of her eye to see if he was still staring. When she first noticed the subject making eye contact with her, it appeared to be flirtatious, but after awhile she began to notice his actions more and she became uncomfortable.
Ms. Black said that he kept staring at her, along with many other girls, and that his mannerisms seemed to be more of a “rude type of looking,” and that he “appeared to be smirking,” like he “felt superior,” or had a “I know something you don’t know” attitude: that is, a combination of sexual overtones, along with overtones of aloofness.
When one girl walked by he turned completely around looking at the girl’s posterior. Ms. Black is positive of where he was looking. The girl was attractive, possibly blonde, fair complexion, about 5’4”, 115 pounds, wearing what appeared to be Levi type jeans and a sweater. The witness states that she does not believe she would recognize the girl again, because she was observing the strange acting subject more than the girl.
Ms. Black saw the subject in three different areas during the time that she was in Sherrod’s. First when she entered into the lounge, she observed him near the front bar area directly in front of the entrance from Jefferson Street, a pretty dark area. She observed him for the longest period in the northeast section, leaning against a wall near the dance floor. This is where she observed him staring at her and others, in a well lit area. He finally left the second area, to her relief. She later went to the ladies room and he was standing east of the door to the ladies room, that was also a pretty dark area.
The witness describes this subject as a white male, approximately 28-30 years old, approximately 5’8-5’10 in height, not tall or short, medium to slender build. Ms. Black described the subject as having greasy hair slicked back. The hair was combed straight back on top and on the sides. Ms. Black states that the suspect did not appear to have any facial hair and that his complexion appeared to be medium dark, “hot and oily.” The witness described the clothing that the man was wearing that night: a blue, London Fog type jacket, baseball type that came just below the waist; possibly blue knit pants, the old bulky style. He was wearing them high waisted with a narrow belt. She recalled the belt, because it looked tacky. He was wearing a light colored shirt, button up style. His shoes were black patent leather and pointy-toed. Ms. Black recalled his shoes because she looked down often to avoid his stares. According to her, his general appearance was “dirty and greasy.”
At this time Ms. Black volunteered that the subject was similar to the picture of Theodore R. Bundy which she had seen (she believed) in the Flambeau, especially from the eyebrow up or the forehead portion of his head but that she had only seen one picture and that was so long ago.
I asked Ms. Black if she would like to see a photographic line-up. She said that if she could see one it might refresh her memory. I brought the standard line-up for her to see. Ms. Black looked through the photographs and as soon as she came to photo #5, Theodore Bundy, she stated, “To me that’s him. Looking at the picture brings back the same memories from that night, an eerie feeling.”
The witness again said that prior to today she could recall seeing only one picture of Bundy in the Flambeau and that one did not look like him, except that his hair was slicked back. These were the same eyes.
Ms. Black and Valerie stayed until closing then left. Later, after hearing about the homicides she talked with her friend about the suspicious person she had seen at Sherrod’s; however, Valerie did not remember seeing him, because after entering the bar they had split up.
In opinion Carla Black is a good and honest witness. She identified Theodore R. Bundy in good faith, and her only doubts are those displayed by any normal person considering the gravity of the possible consequences.
State of Florida v. Theodore R. Bundy, Defendant
Deposition of Mary Ann Picano by Mike Minerva, Public Defender
February 8, 1979
Q: Would you state your name please, ma’am?
A: Mary Ann Picano.
Q: I’m going to ask you some questions about the night of January 14, 1978. Do you remember that night?
Q: Do you know where you were that night?
A: Uh-huh. I was at Sherrod’s and Big Daddy’s.
Q: What time did you go to Sherrod’s?
A: It was probably around 10:30, quarter to 11, somewhere around there.
Q: How long did you stay?
A: About an hour. Not, you know, the usual time that we would have stayed there.
Q: Why not? Is there any particular reason?
A: Yes. I just—I was the one who requested we leave. I just wanted to leave earlier.
Q: Did something unpleasant happen to cause you to want to leave, something unsettling?
Q: Why don’t you tell me about it. You obviously came in contact with somebody there, right?
Q: And did that disturb you?
Q: Alright, well, would you tell me about it, just what happened?
A: The whole thing from the beginning?
A: Ok. Well, I was standing down on the dance floor, and I was with some friends. I just happened to look up and I saw this man standing there. I noticed that he was an older man. My first reaction, you know, I didn’t really know what he was doing there. He was older, and he just looked out of place, because it’s all college guys that are there. You can tell, you know. I’ve never seen anyone older like that in there. He was just… he was standing up with his arms folded and he was just looking over everybody on the dance floor. It was just like he was really deep in thought. He was just scanning the whole area. I picked up on that and I just turned around and ignored it.
And then, I’d say it was within five minutes after that, someone tapped on my shoulder, and I turned around and it was him. He said, “Would you like to dance?” I had a drink in my hand and I kind of motioned ‘no.’ I said “that’s okay, I have a drink.” He was real polite and he said, “Well I’ll go ahead and take your drink and I’ll take my drink too, and I’ll set it on the table.” So I said, “well, okay.” So he went and put our drinks on this table. So while he was putting our drinks on the table, that’s when I turned around to one of my friends that I was with and laughingly I said, “Anna, look at this guy I’m getting ready to dance with. He looks like an ex-con.” I don’t know what made me say that. That was my first reaction.
We were dancing, and he didn’t try anything, he didn’t say anything. But I was just really scared. I don’t know why, I really regretted saying yes to dancing with him. I just tried to ignore the whole situation. As soon as the dance was over, I just kind of took off real quick. And that’s when I told my friends I wanted to leave.
Q: Did he talk to you at all while you were dancing?
A: In the very beginning, like real small talk. I mean, nothing personal, just ordinary conversation. I can’t pinpoint what he said at all, but just real small talk, and I was just briefly answering him. He could tell by the way I was acting—I wouldn’t look at him, I wouldn’t do anything. He didn’t talk to me anymore.
Q: What made you associate in your mind ex-convict, with him?
A: Just the way he looked, he looked kind of, he stuck out. I don’t know.
Q: Well, being out of place there, in terms of being older, that’s one thing, but what association with criminality would that cause you to have?
A: I guess just the look he had in his eyes and on his face. The way he was watching people it just—it didn’t look right, it didn’t look normal.
Q: Can you describe him for me, what he looked like?
A: I remember his height being—the way I kind of remember is like I’m 5’7 and I had one inch boots on, and I’d say he was like an inch taller than me. Well, he’s about, maybe 5’10. That’s the way I’d look at it. Medium build, he wasn’t a big guy but he wasn’t small, so I would say medium. Brown hair, it wasn’t my dark brown but medium brown.
Q: What was the length of the hair?
A: It was short to medium, normal. I’m not giving good answers, am I?
Q: That’s alright, I may not be asking good questions. How would you describe his hair?
A: It wasn’t wavy, but it’s wasn’t that real straight hair either. More or less straight. Thick.
Q: So you wouldn’t call it balding?
Q: You wouldn’t say he had curly hair either, would you?
Q: Now, did you get a good look at his face?
A: It’s hard to remember. If you could have asked me nine months ago, maybe I could have remembered it. But right now, it’s hard to remember.
Q: Do you have any recollection of whether he had any facial hair? Like a beard?
A: He didn’t have a beard.
Q: Could you say whether he had a mustache or not?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Could you say if he had a smooth complexion or if he had any pock marks on his face?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Do you remember what he was wearing?
A: Yeah, he had a jacket on over his shirt. I remember it was two pieces. It wasn’t a heavy coat but I know it was more than a shirt. I think he had like probably a jacket over it or something. They were dark colors.
Q: Did you hear his voice very much? I know he asked you to dance and had a little small talk. But would you recognize his voice?
A: Uh-uh, never.
Q: So you danced with him and then shortly after that you left, is that right?
Q: Did you see him again as you were leaving or on the way out or anything like that?
A: No I didn’t.
Q: Did anybody else that was with you mention seeing him anymore?
A: Well, all I remember is one girl said that when she was walking out there was a guy that was standing outside by himself. Because she ran into him, you know, and I think she said, “Excuse me, I’m sorry.” He was standing out there by himself. That’s all I know. I didn’t see that. I was kind of ahead of the group.
Q: You don’t know if that was the same person you danced with?
A: No, I didn’t even see him, I’m just going by what someone else said.
Q: Now, later on you talked to some law enforcement officers about this, right?
Q: And when was that?
A: It was when two of the girls that got killed, their picture came out in the paper. I know it was right after that, because I remember we were looking at the paper with the law officers. So it was after that. I don’t know the date.
Q: Do you know why the officers came by to talk to you?
A: Well, because one of my friends that I was out with that night, she called in ab out some car that she saw, and she thought it might be some help, you know. They wanted to know everyone she was out with that night, so they brought my name up. They came to me, I didn’t go to them.
Q: You were a name that they got from her?
A: Right. When they asked her who were you out with that night, she said “Mary Ann Picano.” So they talked to Connie and I. Connie was with us.
Q: Do you know the name of the friend, the person who called in?
A: Yes. Anna Inglett. That’s the girl that I made that comment to, that I was going to dance with an ex-con.
Q: Do you remember the name of the officer that came by and talked to you?
A: No, I can’t remember.
Q: Did you give a recorded statement, or did he just take notes?
A: He just took notes, asked me a lot of questions.
Q: Did he ask you to get back in touch with him or any law enforcement agency?
A: Well, I had to give him a picture of me. And he said that he would be back in touch. And that was really about it.
Q: Did you go to the State Attorney’s Office, the next day or so, and look at some pictures?
A: Yes, I forgot about that. Yeah I did.
Q: What happened there?
A: I just went and looked at some pictures. Nothing happened, I didn’t recognize anything.
Q: Tell me about the trip up here on June the 29th, what did you do?
A: Well, Connie and I flew up here. They talked to us together, you know. Then I saw the pictures by myself. I had to look at a lineup of pictures. Then Connie looked at them after I did. They just asked us a bunch of questions. That’s about it.
Q: Did you recognize anybody in those pictures?
Q: Are you pretty sure, were you positive, or what? What did you think of the pictures that you saw?
A: Well I’d say there was like eight pictures. Right away I got rid of six, you know, that I knew weren’t it. It was down to two. I knew before that one of them that I had singled out was Bundy because I had seen his picture before, and I knew that—but there was just something. I couldn’t put that picture away, it was between that one and another one. Those were the only two and I couldn’t give a definite yes to either one of those pictures. There was just something about both of them that I was really stuck on.
Q: You’re saying that either one of them could have been him?
A: My memory is really vague about it, you know. There was something about one picture that the characteristics of the guy could have fit, you know, it was kind of really vague in my mind. But then when I looked at Bundy’s picture, the look that he had in that picture really, really scared me. I don’t know if it brought back something or what, but that’s the same look and the same feeling that that guy had when he was standing on the stairs. And that’s why I think, uou know, I couldn’t put it away because just the look really frightened me.
Q: Now, you knew that was Bundy’s picture because you had seen his picture in the paper?
Q: How many times had you seen his picture in the paper?
A: Enough to know that was him. I would say several times.
Q: When did you first see his picture in the paper?
A: I think the first time is when it was spread out across the front page when he had six different pictures of him, six different faces. He kept changing his appearance. I think that is the first time I saw him.
Q: Was that in the Tallahassee Democrat?
Q: When you saw those pictures in the paper, did that cause you to think about the person that you had seen at Sherrod’s?
Q: Did you recognize, from any of those pictures in the paper, the person that you had seen at Sherrod’s?
A: At the time, when the paper first came out, no. I haven’t seen the paper since, like if I looked at it right now maybe something would click. But at the time, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t even think of it.
Q: Yet, from the pictures in the paper, you were able to identify the picture in the photo lineup as being Bundy, is that right?
A: Well, I had seen other pictures besides those six across that front page. I had seen various pictures of him.
A: In the Flambeau, at school, in the Democrat. On TV, I guess, they would flash some news thing that showed a picture of him. You know, I was just familiar with what he looked like. And when I saw the lineup, I knew it was him.
Q: Alright. Now, from any of those pictures that you saw in the media, did you form an association between those pictures and the person that you saw in Sherrod’s?
A: Not really.
Q: What did you tell the investigators, when you narrowed it down to those two people, the two pictures? Did they say anything to you?
A: Well, I had my head down looking at the pictures and I didn’t really know they were watching me. But one of them was really watching me and he noticed my eyes and he noticed a lot of my expressions at the time I was looking at the picture. He wanted to know why I kept putting that picture aside and wouldn’t look. I made a comment, something like “I can’t look at that picture” or “That picture scares me.” He kept bringing that out, you know, “Why are you scared of that picture?” He kept asking me that. That’s all that was really said about that picture.
Q: I should have asked you: What was said to you at the beginning of this session, before they showed you the pictures?
A: They just said they were going to show me a lineup of pictures. And they just said, to really think about it, look at the pictures, and see if I recognized the man that I danced with.
Q: What did they tell you before you came up to Tallahassee? What did they tell you what you were coming here for?
A: Questioning. I don’t remember if they told me I was going to look at a lineup of pictures or not. But they said they wanted to talk to me and just ask me some more questions.
Q: You didn’t know for sure that you were going to look at pictures?
A: I figured I probably would, just because I had once before, and that’s the only way that they’d get some idea. I don’t think they directly told me, “You’re going to look at a lineup.”
Q: Have you ever been a witness in a case before, of any kind?
A: No. Can’t you tell?
Q: Have you seen Mr. Bundy in person at any time?
A: Yes. The first time they went to trial, I guess it was December 4—the hearing or whatever it was—that’s the first time I saw him In person.
Q: Did you recognize that person, Mr. Bundy, in court as the person you had seen in Sherrod’s?
A: Well, you know, when I walked in there, I was really, really trying to concentrate. I really had it in my mind to really look at him, get a good look, and try and get it in my head. I never really saw him, face-to-face, until the end.
Q: Tell us what happened at the end.
A: It was weird. Like when the judge said, “All the witnesses can rise.” I was sitting with all the girls in the Chi Omega sorority. On purpose I looked at him, I stared at him. I just wanted to see every move he was making. And when all the girls stood up, he stood up and he turned around and he looked at all the girls. I swear this isn’t my imagination because Connie was right with me and she saw it. Because as soon as it happened she grabbed my hand, so I know it’s not my mind. He looked at all the girls and he caught my eyes looking straight at him. You can feel when you’ve got direct contact with someone’s eyes. You can just feel it, and I felt it.
When he looked at me he just stopped. I could have counted to about—like 1,001, 1,002, 1,003. Just a dead stare. Finally I just broke down and Connie said, “Let’s just get out of here.” I left, I ran out the side door. But I swear, it was a feeling and I know he was looking straight at me, I felt it. And it wasn’t my imagination because someone else saw it.
Q: Did you recognize him?
A: I don’t know why I can’t remember the guy I danced with, you know. All I know is, it’s—if it’s fear or what that’s fogging it out but—I don’t know, it’s hard to say. I just don’t know. I don’t want to say yes, I don’t want to say no because I know in my head I’m really confused about it. I can’t give a definite answer.
Q: Did anyone tell you to look for Mr. Bundy in the courtroom or concentrate on him?
Q: Who did this?
A: I don’t know, one of the officers. All he did is he said, “Mary Ann, just try and relax. When you go in there, look at him and see if anything comes back to you.” That’s all he said.
Q: Did you know where Mr. Bundy was going to be in the courtroom?
A: No. I had never been in a courtroom. When I walked in there, I was looking around for him and then I saw him. But where I was sitting, it was really hard for me to see him. I didn’t see him all the time because I was blocked by a lot of people.
Q: Did you hear Mr. Smith say that to any of the other witnesses?
Q: When did he tell you that?
A: Oh gosh, I don’t remember. I don’t know if it was that day before I went in there, or just maybe one of the last times I talked to him. I’m not sure.
Q: Did you know any of the Chi Omega girls that were in the courtroom?
A: No. I know them now. But I didn’t know them at the time.
Q: Did any of the girls discuss who was the eyewitness that had seen the subject leave the Chi Omega house? Did you hear anybody talking about that?
A: Uh-huh. Yeah, I remember that. I think one of the girls—you know, because Connie and I were talking to them and we were kind of like feeling everything out, you know. I think I remember hearing someone say, “That’s the girls who was the eyewitness.”
Q: Did you talk to her, that girl, at all?
Q: Did you hear her say whether she recognized Mr. Bundy or not?
A: No. I didn’t talk to her at all, I didn’t hear her say anything.
Q: Let me back up a minute. When you got it narrowed down to two pictures, and one of the officers said something about “Why are you putting that one aside,” what was the windup to that process? Did they ask you to settle on one or the other or what your final conclusion was about looking at the pictures?
A: Well, when they asked me my final conclusion, I just said that I was sorry, but I really couldn’t give them a definite yes or no answer.
Q: In other words, it could have been one of those two?
A: Like did I say yes or no to Bundy’s picture, is that what you’re trying to ask me? Did they try and make me single it down to that one and give a yes or no answer, is that what you’re saying?
Q: Well, I’m trying to find out what was said. As much as you can remember.
A: Well, like I said, he wanted to know why I kept trying to block that picture out of my mind, and why I kept pushing it aside. And I just told him that there was something about the look on his face that brought back the look on that guy’s face that was in Sherrod’s. He kept saying, “Is that the guy you danced with?” and I kept saying “I don’t know.” Then he said, “Well, why are you so scared of the picture?” It was just that type of questioning.
Q: Is that the way the conversation about the pictures concluded?
A: Yeah. I just said, “I can’t give a definite yes or no.”
Q: And you still had not eliminated that second photograph as the person? You know, you were talking about having two?
Q: So there were two people that you couldn’t eliminate, but you couldn’t say that they were the ones either?
Q: That’s all.
State of Florida v. Theodore R. Bundy, Defendant
Deposition of Connie Hastings by Mike Minerva, Public Defender
February 8, 1979
Q: Would you state your name please, ma’am?
A: Connie Hastings.
Q: I’m going to ask you some questions about the night of January 14, 1978. Do you remember that night?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Where were you at somewhere around 10 pm?
A: We were at a nightclub called Sherrod’s on Jefferson Street.
Q: How many people were you with?
A: I’d say six girls. Mary Ann, Bertina, Anna, Vivian, and Karen.
Q: Are you in a sorority?
Q: Do you remember what time you got to Sherrod’s that night?
A: Sometime after 10:00pm; maybe a little later.
Q: Had you been to Sherrod’s before?
Q: How many times would you say you’d been in Sherrod’s before that?
A: I’d say at least five to eight times. The only place we would usually go was to Sherrod’s. That was our, like, local hangout. We would always go there because we liked it. And so I know I went at least once a weekend.
Q: Did you usually go to Sherrod’s with the same group of people?
A: Well, usually my roommate, Bertina was one, and Mary Ann, were the two that I would go with. Sometimes more girls would come, but basically all three of us would go together.
Q: What do you remember about the conditions at Sherrod’s on the night of January 14th, as far as the crowd there, whether it was crowded or whatever?
A: Yeah, it was crowded, and it was smoky. The dance floor was fairly crowded also. It usually was that quarter. It was a popular disco.
Q: Do you remember some of the people that you saw there that night, aside from the ones that you went with?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you remember how many people you danced with?
A: I didn’t do any dancing that night. I just kind of stood on the side of the staircase.
Q: Alright. The person that Mary danced with, do you remember him?
A: Yes, sir. I remember when we walked into Sherrod’s a couple of us went and got a drink, and the rest of us were, like, standing on the middle level of Sherrod’s. It’s three levels, and there’s a staircase. And standing on this level you can see the dance floor. And I remember that there was a man standing on the top step of the upper level, and his arms were folded, and he was kind of, like, checking out all the girls. And the reason why I noticed this man was because he was older looking and the way he was just kind of staring at girls, because he caught my eye one time. And you know, I just felt a little uncomfortable. And I remember that Bertina had gone. Mary Ann and I and Anna were standing there. And this man had come off the steps and had asked Mary Ann to dance, because she said something right before he asked her to dance because she had noticed him, too. And that’s when Mary Ann had stated she was about to dance with an ex-con, because he just looked kind of scary.
Q: What about him made you feel uncomfortable?
A: Well, he just didn’t seem to fit in with the regular crowd; the way he was dressed, for one thing, and the way he was standing and checking everyone out. It’s like everybody in Sherrod’s would—if they were standing around the dance floor, they’d just stand there, and hold their drink and just, you know, wait for somebody to ask them to dance or be talking to somebody else. And this guy was just standing like this as looking at everybody, just real slow.
Q: Was he drinking anything?
A: No, not that I could see, because his hands were folded.
Q: What did you notice that was unusual about his dress?
A: Well, he had on—I can’t remember if it was navy blue or black, but it was a dark coat and a dark turtleneck. And it wasn’t that unusual, but it was just real dark. He had dark clothing on. And I don’t even remember exactly what kind of pants he had on, because what I could see of him from the view from where I was standing, it was from like the waist up. He just looked a little but older, not the regular college crowd.
Q: Did you notice him talking with anyone at any time?
A: Not until he asked Mary Ann to dance.
Q: How far away were you standing from where he was standing, what was the distance?
A: I’d say about 12 feet, maybe. Because there’s not much room. It’s a very small place from the steps to the lower level.
Q: Do you remember what the weather was like outside that night?
A: It was cold.
Q: What was it like inside, the temperature?
A: Well, it was real crowded, I remember, and it was real smoky, and it was stuffy in there, real stuffy, like they had the heat on.
Q: Would most people have taken off their outer coats?
Q: But this person did not, is that what you’re saying?
A: Well, some people would leave their coats on or have sweaters on top of a shirt. But most people did take off their coats. I know I had on a coat and so did the girls, and we all took ours off.
Q: Can you describe this coat a little bit more that the person was wearing? Have you seen other coats that are similar to it?
A: I think it was more like a suit coat. It wasn’t a coat-coat, you know, like lining and real thick or bulky.
Q: Would it be like a suit coat like I’m wearing?
A: Yeah, kind of like that style, but it wasn’t that modern because I remember I thought he was kind of outdatedly dressed.
Q: But you would not categorize it as an overcoat, is that correct?
Q: How long do you recall being in Sherrod’s before the man came over and asked Mary to dance?
A: I’d say about fifteen to twenty minutes. I don’t really know. I would say in that area of time, because I know we had gone in, and we were standing there, and we were talking. A couple of girls went to get a drink. And one or two of them had gone off talking to somebody else, because once we got there, we all six weren’t standing there, we had split up. Mary Ann and I had been talking and Bertina too. And then Anna came up and was talking as well. We were just shooting the breeze, listening to the music and talking.
Q: You were talking with Mary at the time that the man came up and asked her to dance? Or maybe I should ask you to describe where the people were generally at that time; where Mary was and where this man was in the sequence of events.
A: Okay. When this man asked Mary Ann to dance, she wasn’t engaged in direct conversation with me. There was like three or four of us standing on the lower level, right next to the dance floor. If I took two steps, I’d be on the dance floor. We were all standing around there talking. At the time, I was just standing there. I had seen somebody come up and ask her to dance. And that’s when I overheard Mary Ann say: “Oh my God, I’m about to dance with an ex-con.” And I think what it was, was this man had asked her to dance and had taken their drinks. She had a drink, I don’t know if he did. But he had taken her drink, because she said: “I can’t dance because I’m drinking something.” And he had taken her drink, and he was coming back. And that’s when, after she had said that, I watched her go to the dance floor. Because when we go out in a group of girls, we all kind of always look out for each other. And when we see one of us maybe dancing with someone that we’ve never met before, we just naturally keep an eye on each other.
Q: Did you watch her while she was dancing or watch him?
A: I tried to watch them as much as I could, but being that it was crowded, I could see them dancing, and then another couple would move in front of them, and then I couldn’t see them.
It was like, off and on I could see them. And it was a fast dance, not a slow dance.
Q: How many times did she dance with him?
A: I don’t know exactly how many times. But at Sherrod’s they play one record, and before it’s over they’ll start another record. And I don’t remember how many sides it was. I wouldn’t think it was more than one side, because I think she felt uncomfortable dancing with him.
Q: Did she come back over to where you were when she finished dancing with him?
A: I think so, yeah.
Q: Did he come over with her?
A: I don’t remember if they went and got their drinks first or if he brought her drink to her, because after that, she just came back. And I remember after a few minutes, we were all standing around, and she said, “Let’s try to round up the girls in a little bit so we can go, I want to leave.”
Q: Did you see where the man went after he danced with her?
A: No, I didn’t.
Q: Did you see him again at any time that evening?
A: No, I didn’t. As we were leaving, one of the girls had stated there was a man standing outside watching us. But there’s people everywhere there. And she didn’t say too much about it, but I remember her saying: “Come on, let’s hurry up and get in the car, that guy is looking funny.” But I didn’t notice because it was just—as we were walking around, there was a whole bunch of us, and we were just talking. And one of them had said that there’s a guy standing outside.
Q: But you didn’t see that person?
A: I didn’t see that person. I didn’t even know if there was a guy there or not.
Q: When this man came over to ask Mary to dance, did you get a good look at this face at that time? Or did you see him at all, really?
A: Well, I glanced at him, and I had realized that he was the same man that was standing up on the stairs, looking at everybody. With his arms folded and moving his head slowly, turning about, scanning the scene, I guess you’d say.
Q: Thinking back to that time now, how would you describe that person as far as his face, his hair?
A: Well, I remember that he had dark hair, it was kind of wavy. It wasn’t curly or straight. And I don’t know if he needed a shave or what, but his complexion just didn’t look real smooth.
Q: How dark would you say his hair was, black, brown, light brown?
A: I’d say it was about dark brown, brown.
Q: You were describing his face. You say you’re not sure about his—whether it was his complexion or whether he needed a shave.
A: Right. And, like, a couple of times, if I caught his eye, he just had a mysterious look about him.
Q: Did you notice any prominent features?
A: You mean like a real big nose or something?
A: No not really. Just that he had dark hair and you know, he didn’t have like a mustache or a beard, but there was something about his complexion. The lights in Sherrod’s, they were always flashing on and off. And it’s not like there were lights right on him. And I couldn’t tell if it was like, shadows on his face or what. His complexion just didn’t seem smooth.
Q: Did you notice any scars or birthmarks?
A: I really didn’t look at him that closely to notice.
Q: Did you ever see his profile?
A: Yeah. When she was dancing with him, I had to have seen his profile.
Q: How would you describe his profile?
A: Well, when they were dancing, they were farther away from me. And it was really smoky, and it was really crowded. I don’t really—I don’t think I could give you a good description of his profile other than what I’ve already told you when I saw him from the front.
Q: Could you estimate his age? I know you said he was older than the college crowd—
A: I would say he was maybe like in his thirties. He looked that old, late twenties or early thirties. And most of the people that go into Sherrod’s are college students. They’re not the older college students. They’re the younger ones, like you know, between eighteen and twenty-two, I’d say.
Q: Do you have any memory of his height, either in terms of his actual height or compared to someone else?
A: I’m not exactly sure. I would say he was about five ten, because he wasn’t real tall. And I’m not real tall. And Mary Ann, I’m not sure how tall she is. But she had on boots that night, and she was about—just a couple of inches shorter than he was.
Q: How about his build?
A: Just medium. He wasn’t real big, and he wasn’t real small.
Q: What time do you think you left Sherrod’s that night?
A: I’m not really sure what time, but I know we left Sherrod’s and went to Big Daddy’s. And it was somewhere around 11:30 and midnight that we were at Big Daddy’s. I didn’t make note of it.
Q: Do you recall the person that you saw in Sherrod’s wearing layered clothing?
A: He had a shirt underneath, I’m almost sure it was a turtleneck.
Q: Just wearing the turtleneck underneath his jacket.
Q: Do you know how long you stayed at Big Daddy’s?
A: I wouldn’t say more than half an hour, because by then we were tired, and we were all ready to go home. And Big Daddy’s was real crowded too, and we decided we wanted to leave.
Q: So after you left Big Daddy’s, you went home, is that correct?
Q: Now, did you ever contact any law enforcement officers about what you had seen in Sherrod’s?
A: I personally didn’t contact anybody. I think—Anna and Vivian lived in a dormitory together. And when the police were going around asking the different dormitories to keep the doors locked and if they had seen anything, Anna and Vivian then proceeded to tell them about Mary Ann dancing with this guy that we thought was a little bit different and told them that she thought she was dancing you, like, with an ex-con. And from there they picked it up, and they just wanted to talk to us and just asked us questions about where we were and if we had seen anything unusual that night.
Q: You said that Mary Ann had made these comments about dancing with an ex-con. Did you have a discussion about this afterward?
A: Yeah, we did, because we were just talking about that night. And then after we heard what happened, we thought, God, we really have to be careful and look out after each other. And that’s when we just said—you know, there was a big panic after that had happened. And so everybody was talking. And we were just saying that was weird that Mary Ann had danced with a guy like that, and we said yeah, and you know, we just talked about how you just have to be really safe when you go out and just watch out after each other.
Q: Do you know the name of the police officer that came and talked to you that Sunday?
A: No, I don’t remember.
Q: Do you know what police agency he was with?
A: He wasn’t FSU. I think it was the sheriff, because Mary Ann was the one who had told us that he was coming. So when he came, he knocked on our door. Mary Ann was there.
Q: Did he take a recorded statement from you?
Q: But he did write down a description of the person you had seen?
A: I think so.
Q: How long did he talk with you, about?
A: I’d say about half an hour, maybe, because he talked to all the girls. And he took a picture of Mary Ann and a picture of Anna with him. He just basically asked us what we had done that night and where we had gone and who we had seen. And then he just wanted us to describe this one guy that Mary Ann had danced with.
Q: Did he take notes at the time? Did he write down the description?
A: He did take notes, because he had the pictures too, and he took them all together when he left.
Q: He took Polaroid pictures?
A: No. Mary Ann and Anna had given him two pictures, because we were all looking through Mary Ann’s pictures to try to find the one that looked like her the most or something. And he had taken them with him, because somehow they had thought she kind of resembled Margaret Bowman, because of her dark hair and her dark eyebrows and the way her hair was styled.
Q: How was her hair styled?
A: It was parted in the middle and just shoulder length, feathered back.
Q: Do you know any of the Chi-Omega sorority girls?
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you see the local paper regularly?
Q: When is the next time you talked to a law enforcement officer?
A: He wanted us to come the next morning to look at some pictures. I guess it was Monday morning.
Q: So, as best you remember, then, this was one week after the 14th and you went to the State Attorney’s office.
A: Right. One at a time we had to go in an office. And they had eight by ten pictures laid out on a desk. We had to go in there and like, with a magnifying glass, look over the pictures and see if any of them resembled the guy that Mary Ann had danced with at Sherrod’s.
Q: Did you recognize anybody from those pictures?
A: No, not in those pictures I didn’t. And they were really blurry, I thought they were terrible pictures. The ones that were clear were definitely not the guy that Mary Ann danced with. I could just tell.
Q: Other than looking at the pictures, did you talk to any of the officers about what you had seen?
A: No. I think that day all we did was go in and look at the pictures and then leave. Bertina told them that she never saw the guy Mary Ann danced with because she wasn’t standing there with us. She was one of the ones that was off, so she really didn’t know.
Q: How long did you stay in Tallahassee, after the winter quarter? Did you stay for the spring quarter, and then you went home for the summer?
Q: And after you had gone home is when you were contacted by someone?
A: (Nods head).
Q: Who contacted you, and what did they say?
A: It was Mr. Phillips. He said he wanted to ask us some questions, and he wanted us to look at some pictures.
Q: Did he tell you whose pictures you were going to be looking at?
A: No, he just said he wanted us to look at some pictures.
Q: Can you tell me about what happened when you came up to Tallahassee at that time?
A: They talked to us together, and then they talked to Mary Ann and I individually.
Q: Were you talking about what you had seen on the night of the 14th?
Q: Did you have any information at that time whose pictures you were going to be looking at?
A: No, sir. They just wanted us to look at pictures to see if we could recognize, or you know, find an association of the guy that Mary Ann had danced with. All they were saying was that they had some more pictures, better pictures, because we complained about the ones weren’t good to look at.
Q: Did you know that someone had been arrested and charged with that crime?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you know the person’s name?
A: Yes. Theodore Bundy.
Q: Had you ever seen pictures of Mr. Bundy?
A: Well, there was one time in the Tallahassee Democrat where they had, I think it was on the front page, they had a segment of like, six different pictures of him. And those were the pictures that I remember seeing. And I couldn’t believe it, because as I was looking at them, I thought, God, how can somebody look so different so many times.
Q: Do you know when you saw those six pictures in the newspaper?
A: No, but I think it would have to be in the spring quarter because I wasn’t here in the summer.
Q: Do you recall reading in the paper when Mr. Bundy was arrested?
Q: When you saw the pictures in the newspaper, did that in any way remind you of the person you had seen at Sherrod’s on the 14th?
A: Well, when I looked at those pictures, I kind of didn’t really pay a whole lot of attention to them. When I was looking at them, I was more surprised at the fact that he looked so different in all of them.
Q: When did you hear about the Chi Omega crimes? The Sunday afternoon?
A: When my mother called me and told me about them, because I hadn’t heard anything about them. She was in Ft. Pierce and had heard before I did even. And she just called and wanted to make sure I was okay.
Q: Did you make any association in your mind at that time between the person that you saw in Sherrod’s and the possible perpetrator of this crime?
A: Well, at the time, I didn’t. But then after, Mary Ann and I were talked about it. I said, God, what if that was the guy that you had danced with, you know the one that supposedly had been arrested or whatever. I said, what if it’s the same person, isn’t that strange. But that’s about all.
Q: Do you know whether she had seen the pictures of Mr. Bundy that were in the newspaper, the ones that you saw?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Did you ever discuss with her those pictures in the paper and whether that might have been the person that she danced with?
A: No. I don’t remember discussing it with her.
Q: When you saw the photographs in the paper, did you call any law enforcement officer to remark about those photos?
A: No, I didn’t.
Q: Had the officers that you talked to given you any directions about what to do in case you saw this same person again or how to make contact with them if you remembered something else?
A: Yeah, every time, they said, if you think of anything else, call us.
Q: Do you remember seeing Mr. Bundy on television at any time?
A: Not until I came back here.
Q: And what did you see on television then?
A: I think he was just in the courtroom or jail. I don’t even know where he was. But they were just interviewing him. And I think he was complaining to somebody. I don’t even remember what exactly was said, something about not being able to talk to the press or something. All I remember is that was the first time I had seen him on TV.
Q: When you saw that television program, did Mr. Bundy then remind you of the person you had seen in Sherrod’s?
A: Yes. But the first time is when we were looking at those pictures in the summertime. It was like I was sitting there, and there were lots of pictures, and they were 5 x 7, and I was looking at them. They were in a pile, and we looked at them one by one. And then we laid them out and looked at them all laid out. When I was glancing through the pictures, I’d pick one up, and I’d look at it, and then I’d pick up another one and look at it. When I got to Theodore Bundy’s, I just went—that was him, because I could—just that momentary expression right there, I just said, God, that was him. And then after I was looking at them and I came back to it, I thought, God, that’s Theodore Bundy. I kind of didn’t want to say anything then because I didn’t want to say that that was him because I had heard all that other stuff about him. And then Grady came in and was talking to us and said, “Now, we want you to be very honest and just tell us what you think.” And I said, “There’s something about this picture, it really reminds me of him.” He goes, “Well is that him or isn’t it?” and I said, “Well, I don’t really know. It looks exactly like him.”
You know, as soon as I saw it, it was like, God, that’s the picture that I’ve been trying to draw. And that was the first time, really, that I thought that was him. And then afterwards, when I saw that TV, all I knew it it only lasted a few minutes, and I had looked at it. I was trying in my mind to picture him at Sherrod’s, standing there doing that. And I just looked at him, and he just looked very familiar, like the person that I was thinking about. But the first time that it really hit me is when we were looking at the little pictures. It was just that look. There was just something about this look.
And like, when we were there in the courtroom—this was really strange. When we had to come that one time, December or I don’t remember when it was. But when all the girls were getting ready to leave, he stood up, and he turned, and he looked around, and he was looking at all the girls. And he caught Mary Ann’s eye, and he just stared, and it was that same stare. I’m not kidding. When he looked at Mary Ann, he just kind of—Mary Ann was in tears afterwards because she just felt it again. It was just a weird look.
Q: When was this now?
A: This is when we were called. It was our first subpoena, and they thought they were going to have the trial and then they changed it because they wanted more time. We had only come one time, and I’ve only seen Theodore Bundy one time. He would know. Can’t you ask him?
Q: Sometimes he tells me things and sometimes he doesn’t. I never know. We can find out from the service of the subpoena. I think it was October because of the way things have gone in the case. Now, you say you were there with other girls. Who were those other girls?
A: Well, I was there with Mary Ann. We had come together. And we were sitting with some of the Chi Os. So we were sitting with all of them.
Q: Were these girls also going to be witnesses in the case?
A: I don’t know exactly if they were witnesses or why they were there. One of them I had had in one of my classes.
Q: Were you given any instructions about going into the courtroom and looking for someone and trying to identify someone?
Q: Were you given any instructions about not to look at anyone?
Q: Had you talked with any of the other witnesses about what they had seen?
A: No, sir.
Q: Were you shown any other pictures or any pictures after June the 29th?
A: No, sir.
Q: Were you shown the pictures by yourself at the time, or was Mary Ann with you?
A: By myself.
Q: How many were shown to you altogether?
A: About eight, black and white.
Q: What did the other people in the pictures look like, in the photographs? I mean, were they similar to the general description of the person that you have seen?
A: Sort of. They were medium build and had dark hair.
Q: Could you see names on the pictures?
A: No, I didn’t see any names on them.
Q: Did the clothing that was worn by Mr. Bundy in the picture assist you in any way in making him out?
A: Uh-huh. Because it was dark clothing, and it was what I had kind of pictured him in, because he had a turtleneck on in the picture as well.
Q: Do you recall anyone else in that line-up having similar kinds of clothing?
A: Not really. I don’t remember exactly what they had on.
Q: Were you expecting to find somebody in there that you could identify?
A: No, sir.
Q: What did the investigators tell you before you sat down to look at the pictures?
A: They just went over again what happened that night. Then they said to just take time and look at the pictures. They said sometimes your memory is like a little camera. And they were there saying for us to try to really think about and relax and think about that night and what we had seen and just look at the pictures and see if there’s any resemblance.
Q: Tell me as best you can what you did when you got the pictures, exactly how you went through them, and what your thought process was as you went through the pictures.
A: Okay. The pictures were in a stack, and I picked them up, and I started looking through them. And then I got to the one that I later learned was Theodore Bundy’s. And I looked at it, because as soon as I got it, it was like, that look. When my eyes looked at the eyes in that picture, it was like, I know that look. And I said God, that looks exactly like him. And then I said, well, I’m going to look at the other ones. And I started looking at the other ones. And then Grady said, if you want, you can lay them all out and look at them all at the same time, and so I laid them out. And as I did, I thought this was really foolish because none of the others ones looked like that—that face that I had seen except for that one. And I just kept on looking at it. And it was, like, the expression, the way the eyes were looking at me, it just looked so familiar. And I just sat there looking at it. And then I said, this looks exactly like him. And then Grady said okay. And then I think he put my initial on the back of the picture. And then it was Mary Ann’s turn, and I had to leave.
Q: Did you have any conversation with her before she came in?
Q: When did you learn that the picture you had selected was Theodore Bundy?
A: Well, afterward after Mary Ann had looked at them, and then we all came back in there. And I said to Grady, “That was Theodore Bundy, wasn’t it?” And he said, “yes it was.” And then I just said, wow. And my first thought was I don’t want to get involved in this thing. Maybe I shouldn’t say it, but it’s true. I thought, God, what am I getting into. I don’t want to say anything. And he said, “well, look at it this way, if you had a really close friend and something happened to her, wouldn’t you want anybody that knew anything about it to say what they knew?” And I said yes, I would. And that’s when I said, you know, I have to.
Q: When you saw the person in the courtroom, did you recognize him then as the person you had seen in Sherrod’s?
A: Especially when he turned around, and he got up, and he looked at the girls, and he caught Mary Ann’s eye. It was like, God, it was like that look. He wasn’t sitting down. I think he was more or less kind of like leaning on the chair or something. And we were over here, leaving. And Mary Ann and I were in the middle of the row, and we were waiting for the rest of the girls to go out. And she was standing right there in front of me. And I wanted to see him, because you know, I wanted to look at him again. And I turned around. And Mary Ann and I both were turning around, and we looked. And it was weird, because you know how you can tell somebody is looking at you? It was like that stare.
He turned around, and he looked at her, and his mouth kind of dropped a little bit. And he went (indicating). And Mary Ann was in tears. She just started crying. Because when it comes to this, Mary Ann is real emotional about it, she’s scared to death. She’s petrified. And so as she was walking out, she just broke out and started crying real bad. And that’s when Grady took her aside, and he told us, “Hey, don’t worry about it, it’s okay.” And she said, “that look, I can’t stand that look, that stare.”
Q: So you were in the courtroom when Mr. Bundy was submitting his argument to the Court?
A: Yes I was.
Q: So you knew who he was at that time, right? And that was before he looked over at Mary Ann?
A: Right. Because when he looked over at Mary Ann is when we were dismissed to go, I think, so they could select a jury.
Q: Let me ask you this, do you recall seeing the person that you were describing in Sherrod’s dancing with anyone else that evening?
A: No, sir.
Q: Now, you’ve never seen Mr. Bundy at any other time except what you’ve described to me; one time you saw him on television and then the picture you saw in the line-up and then the time in the courtroom. Is that right?
A: Yeah. And the time at Sherrod’s when he was dancing with Mary Ann.
Q: You’re saying now that you’re sure that’s Mr. Bundy?
A: I feel it is. Yeah, it is, by the way I felt then I was looking at those pictures and that same look that I saw again when we came to the courtroom in October. It was just something about him when he was standing on the stairway just looking at everybody.
Q: Did Mary Ann tell you what she talked about when she was dancing with the person, or did they have any conversation or anything like that?
A: Yeah. We had talked about it afterwards, especially when we were talking to the law enforcement. And she was saying that all she could really remember was that he was asking her, you know, typical questions you ask someone when you’re dancing, what your name is, your major, or whatever. But I remember she said she really didn’t remember exactly what he had said but just the typical you know, common questions you usually ask somebody when you’re dancing and you don’t know who they are.
Q: But there was nothing unusual about what he said, or his manner of speech?
A: No, she just said there was nothing unusual.
Q: Can you think of anything else that I didn’t ask you about that you might remember?
A: There’s one thing I do remember—you asked if we discussed anything, after we had come in October, among the Chi-O girls. I remember there was one time when I was talking to a girl with red hair, Nancy. And I had asked her, I said, “Isn’t there supposed to be one eyewitness?” And she said, “Yes, it’s her.” And she pointed to a girl. And that was the only—I forgot to tell you that.
Q: Had that girl, the one that Nancy pointed to, had she been in the courtroom with you?
A: She was sitting in there with us, yeah, but we didn’t get introduced or anything. She just pointed to her.
Mr. Minerva: Thank you, no more questions.
State of Florida v. Theodore Robert Bundy, Defendant
Deposition of Carla Black by Mike Minerva, Public Defender
April 10, 1979
Q: I am going to ask you some questions relating to the night of January 14th or the early morning of January 15, 1978. Do you know where you were at that time?
A: Yes, I know where I was between 11:30 and 3:00am. We were at Sherrod’s between—I guess it was around 11:30 or 12 until closing. Then we went to the Krystal.
Q: While you were at Sherrod’s on that night did you notice anything unusual, or any unusual looking people?
A: Yes, I did. He just was a strange looking fellow that just did not belong in there. He was not college crowd typical at all.
Q: Was he the only person that didn’t seem to fit?
A: He was the one that I noticed because he paid attention to me. I didn’t notice if—usually it is pretty typically college in Sherrod’s. There’s not too many—
Q: Did this person say anything to you?
A: No, he didn’t.
Q: Did you see him dance with anyone?
Q: What is it that first caused you to notice this person?
A: When I first went in I think he was standing just right out in the front. But when I really noticed him is when I was standing up close to the dance floor and he just was staring at me/
Q: How far away was he from you?
A: I would say about seven or eight feet.
Q: Do you remember how he was dressed?
A: Yes. He had on a blue kind of baggy type baseball jacket. And he had on dark pants and black patent leather pointed toe shoes. They weren’t real shiny, but yet they were the old-fashioned kind that tied. They were just black shoes, the plain oxford type. He had on a light colored shirt.
Q: What about his face?
A: He had a somewhat oily complexion. He kind of looked kind of dirty. He had a high hairline and I noticed the eyes the most, because they were just kind of beady type, just like they were staring straight through you.
Q: What color was his hair?
A: Dark. I would say a dark brown. It was dark, but I couldn’t tell if it was black or brown.
Q: How was his hair combed?
A: Back from his face. It was greasy like the 50s type.
Q: Did it look like he had some preparation in his hair?
A: It was wet, greasy, or something.
Q: Was he wearing glasses?
Q: Did he have any facial hair?
Q: Did he have a mustache?
Q: Was his complexion smooth, pock marked, or rough?
A: I wasn’t close where I could see whether he had a bad complexion or not.
Q: How long was it that you were within seven or eight feet of him?
A: Between fifteen and twenty minutes. It was a long time.
Q: Did he make any gestures towards you or anything like that?
A: He just sat there and stared. He was real—I guess you would say he was suggestive with his eyes.
Q: Did he stare at other people too?
A: When I looked his eyes were looking at me. I didn’t want him to see me looking at him.
Q: Did you see him anymore that night?
A: I saw him later on when I came out of the restroom. He was standing up against the wall. I think that is the last time I remember seeing him.
Q: What time was that would you say that you were in there and saw him?
A: It would be between 12:30 and 1:00 probably. It would have to be.
Q: The coat he was wearing was not a jacket type sports coat or suit coat or anything like that?
A: Oh no. It was like, it was elasticized around the waist with a zip-up.
Q: What kind of material would you say it was?
A: Well, I described it like a London Fog material, but it’s like a raincoat material.
Q: Not nylon, not slick?
A: No, not slick.
Q: What kind of material would you say the pants were?
A: They looked to be like the real old-fashioned kind of double knit, you know, when they first came out; when double knits first came out they were real thick, a thick type of material the type of double knit that was used.
Q: Is there anything else that you can remember about him?
A: Just that he wasn’t really big. Just that he just really made me uncomfortable.
Q: Did he seem to be intoxicated to you?
Q: How long was his hair?
A: It was not long. It wasn’t over his collar. It was slicked back so it is kind of hard to tell.
Q: How tall do you think he was?
A: Probably around 5’10”. He wasn’t a real tall person; he wasn’t short either. He was kind of medium.
Q: How old do you think he was?
A: I would say he was about 28 or 29.
Q: How much does he weigh, or what kind of a build did he have?
A: Medium to slender build. He wasn’t heavy.
Q: When is the first time you saw any pictures of Mr. Bundy?
A: The first time the school newspaper had it in the paper.
Q: When you saw those pictures did you have any association with the person that you had seen in Sherrod’s?
Q: It didn’t make you think of the person you had seen in Sherrod’s at all?
Q: How many times have you seen Mr. Bundy’s picture in the paper?
A: I would say about three or four times.
Q: At any time that you saw Mr. Bundy’s picture in the paper did it cause you to recognize him as a person you had seen in Sherrod’s?
Q: Did you believe the person that you had seen in Sherrod’s was Mr. Bundy before you talked to [Detective] West?
Q: Did you ask to see some pictures of Mr. Bundy to see if you could make an identification?
Q: Did he ask you to look at some pictures?
Q: What did he show to you?
A: A series of line-ups, different pictures.
Q: Tell me as much as you can about what happened.
A: Ok, I remember that he showed me different pictures of different people, you know, and I didn’t recognize any of them. And then he showed me a picture and it was the same eyes, and it was a picture of Bundy.
Q: Aside from the eyes, what about the rest of the picture?
A: The forehead and from the eyes up.
Q: What about from the eyes down?
A: No. I don’t have a very good picture from the eyes down.
Q: So would you say that the picture that Investigator West showed you of Mr. Bundy was a picture of the same person that you saw at Sherrod’s?
Q: Can you explain to me how you can say that on the basis of only recognizing him from the eyes up and not from the basis on seeing him from the eyes down? I have a little difficulty with that.
A: I remember faces well. And from the eyes—I had the most contact with his eyes, staring at him. He had a high forehead with hair that was kind of receding from here up, and that is how I recognized it. When I looked at the pictures it was the same eyes.
Q: Did the picture of Mr. Bundy show a receding hairline?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: So what you recognized really was a picture of the eyes, is that it?
A: Right. But the person I saw had a receding hairline.
Q: The person you saw in Sherrod’s had a receding hairline?
A: I guess that is what you call a receding hairline. It was up at the temples.
Q: About how far back?
A: Not very far, but enough to notice.
Q: Would you say the person was balding at that place?
A: No. That was their hairline.
Q: Did you see whether they had a straight nose, a crooked nose, a turned up nose, anything like that?
A: Well, it just seemed like an average face. I really—not an average face, but I—no.
Q: Was the person still in Sherrod’s when you left or did he leave before you did?
A: I didn’t notice.
Q: What time did you leave?
A: At closing, 2:00.
Q: What would you say would be the last time that you saw him?
A: When I came back from the restroom.
Q: Do you know what time that was?
A: Between 12:30 and 1:00.
Q: When you saw the picture of Mr. Bundy, did the rest of the face look familiar at all? Apart from his eyes down, did it look familiar?
A: I can’t honestly say.
Q: What was different about it?
A: The hairline.
Q: Alright. The hairline—the hairline looked different from the pictures in the newspaper. Did the rest of the face, on the picture that Mr. West showed you, look like the rest of the face of the pictures that were in the newspaper? In other words, discounting the hairline—
Q: Did the pictures that Detective West showed you look like the pictures of Mr. Bundy in the newspaper?
Q: What was different?
A: Aside from the hairline? Well, that triggered it all, just the way the hair was; that would make me recognize it.
Q: If you saw pictures of someone else with the same kind of hairline do you think you would be confused?
Q: Nobody but Mr. Bundy has that kind of hairline?
A: Nobody but the person in that picture, and if that was him, yes.
Q: No more questions.
State of Florida vs. Theodore Robert Bundy, Defendant
Motion to Suppress Testimony of Witnesses Picano and Hastings
April 26, 1979
Defendant moves that the court suppress the testimony of Mary Ann Picano and Connie Hastings on the ground that it is irrelevant, prejudicial and the result of impermissibly suggestive pretrial identification procedures which violate the defendant’s right to due process of law. The grounds in support of this motion are:
1. The witnesses originally gave descriptions on January 19, 1978 inconsistent with the defendant’s appearance and inconsistent with the appearance of the person seen leaving the Chi Omega House on January 15, 1978.
2. The witnesses subsequently saw photographs of the defendant in the media depicting him as a suspect, thereby tainting any later identifications.
3. The state displayed an unduly suggestive photographic lineup to each of the witnesses on June 29, 1978; the method in which the lineup was displayed was also suggestive.
4. The state failed to take steps to prevent Miss Picano and Miss Hastings from viewing the defendant in the courtroom during pretrial hearings on October 3, 1978 when the defendant was representing himself. In addition, an agent of the state told Miss Picano to look at the defendant in the courtroom” and see if anything comes back to you”.
5. Pretrial identification procedures which are unnecessarily suggestive can taint any later identifications. Allowing a witness to see a defendant singly or under unduly suggestive circumstances violates due process of law. The manner of conducting the photographic identification and the lack of reasonable efforts to shield the witnesses from viewing the defendant in person violated the defendant’s right to a fair identification process at trial. Any subsequent identification is a product of the faulty procedures used by the state and could not be based upon the witnesses’ observations of January 14 or 15, 1978.
6. To remedy these violations of due process of law the state should not be allowed to present at trial the opinion testimony of Mary Ann Picano or Connie Hastings regarding the possible identity of the defendant. This ruling should include any proposed identification of the defendant in the courtroom and any testimony regarding the photographic lineup displayed on June 29, 1978.
Michael Minerva, Public Defender
Memorandum to: File of Picano, Hastings, and Anna Inglett
From: Joe Aloi, Dave Brown, Public Defender’s Office
Date: May 14, 1979
Interviewed Anna Inglett at the Public Defender’s office at approximately 2:00pm. She states that she and Vivian, her roommate, were together the evening of January 14th and the early morning hours of January 15th. They are both responsible for calling the initial police report in concerning their experiences that night. She believes that she spoke with Officer Sanders that afternoon and then again a few days later. On the initial contact she described a blue car parked near a tree behind Chi Omega. She also reflected upon a white male holding a Miller can who was near the alley or property line area between Chi Omega and Sherrod’s. This man was on the sidewalk area blocking her way. She asked him “excuse me” and he said in a very polite manner, “certainly.” She states that this man was approximately 5’9” tall and had what appeared to be layers of clothing on. She was not shown a photo lineup during the first contact with Sanders. At that time she provided Sanders with the names of additional people who were in her party that night.
She believes it was two or three days later when the next contact was made. She states that the man that talked with her two or three days later was possibly Sanders again, and another man. They showed her seven to eight pictures. In this group of pictures were some Iranians or people who looked like Iranians. Inglett picked out one man as the man that strongly resembled the man inside Sherrod’s who had danced with Mary Ann Picano. She states that what made her pick him out is that he was big and he had a rough complexion.
Her independent description of the man inside is that he was approximately 5’10-11”. He was big, he wasn’t dressed very nice, he had what appeared to be several different kinds of clothing on, and he had acne scars that were obviously older scars that made his face appear to be very rough. During this picture lineup she picked out the man that she thought was most likely the one inside. She did not refer to the man outside in any of her identifications of photos. She is also aware of the fact that Mary Ann Picano picked out a picture from the same group. She does not know if it was the same picture as hers or not.
Inglett states that she was drinking but she was in pretty good shape. Picano was very straight even though she had been drinking. She states that it could have been Officer Phillips who showed her the picture lineup. It was shown to Vivian, Mary Ann, and Anna. Anna stated “this most looks like the guy inside.” She states that Sanders was very easy going during the interview and didn’t push them to do anything. She states that the report that Aloi read to her concerning the description that Sanders made that he took from all of the girls is accurate and a good description as of that time.
Anna Inglett specifically remembers the man outside because of the Miller’s beer can. Vivian believes that she saw the man outside also but Anna does not think that she really saw him nor does she think that any of the other girls saw the man outside because they were walking some long distance in front. There were two in back and three in the front and Anna remembers yelling to them, telling them to cut down the other way to get into the rear of the Chi Omega house to get their parked cars. She thinks that the man was not on the sidewalk area until she herself tried to pass that way. She also doesn’t feel that Vivian, who was walking with her, was even paying attention.
Prior to the interview at the office she inferred rather strongly to Dave Brown that the man inside was not the same man outside as was indicated by Connie Hastings. During the interview here at the office Inglett was basically non-committal, stating it could be the man inside, or maybe not. She would not commit herself either way. She also states that in July or mid-summer last year she received a call from a man who stated he was working for the State Attorney’s Office and that he was working on the Bundy and Chi Omega case. He asked her if she would come to Tallahassee for a deposition and also would she identify a man out of a lineup as the one that was at Sherrod’s. He also asked if she would come to court and look at the guy. She stated to him that she did not feel like they had enough information from her to know what she really could see or not see and she felt that she herself would not be a good witness for she had seen Bundy’s pictures in the newspapers and they did not strike any response with her as to being the possible assailant or the man in Sherrod’s or outside. She also states that the man who called her also called Vivian and tried to get her to do the same thing.
She states that she looked at pictures in the paper of Bundy on many occasions and none of those pictures remind her of the man inside or outside. She also states that Mary Ann Picano, when she danced with the man, handed her the glass and not Connie Hastings, saying “I’m going to dance with an ex-con, hold my glass.” The interesting testimony from Inglett is the fact that these girls were walking in two different groups leaving, and that inside Sherrod’s the girls were basically scattered around and she was nearby in order to take the drink from Picano when the ex-con comment was made and Hastings was NOT the one receiving the drink or the comment. Also, both she and Picano picked out a picture from the group that Sanders showed them. She does not know Picano’s feelings about the picture she picked.
Memorandum to: File of Anna Inglett
From: Dave Brown, Public Defender’s Office
Date: May 16, 1979
Contacted Anna Inglett about Ms. Hastings stating that the man inside and the man outside of Sherrod’s on the evening of the 15th were one and the same. Ms. Inglett states that Ms. Hastings had conveyed that they were the same person on several occasions.
Ms. Inglett has never been to the State Attorney’s Office to identify photographs- only Hastings and Picano did. The only photos that she has seen were presented to her by Sgt. Sanders a couple days after the murders.