This is part two of surviving victim Carol DaRonch’s witness testimony in the Third District Court in Salt Lake City, February 23, 1976. In it she is cross examined by attorney John O’Connell, who defended Ted Bundy. David Yocom was the Assistant Salt Lake County Attorney representing the State of Utah.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. JOHN O’CONNELL:
Q: Miss DaRonch, did you tell the police on the evening of November 8th, 1974, when you talked to them, that there was anything in particular about the way the man walked?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell them there was anything about the way he talked that was unusual?
A: No.
Q: You said he was just average, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you decide that he sounded like he was well educated?
A: I have told them that before.
Q: When?
A: I don’t know when exactly, but I told them that before.
Q: Before September, ’75?
A: Yes.
Q: Who did you tell?
A: I think it was someone from the Bountiful Police.
Q: Did someone from the Bountiful Police talk to you about the suspect they had up in Bountiful?
A: No.
Q: Did you testify previously about looking at a sketch and saying that it didn’t look like the person because the mustache was different?
A: What sketch?
Q: Well did you look at the sketch of any individual?
A: One.
Q: Who showed it to you?
A: A security guy at Mountain Bell.
Q: Nobody from the Bountiful Police ever showed you their sketch?
A: I don’t know if he got the sketch from Bountiful.
Q: Showing you what has been marked as Defendant’s Proposed Exhibit 24, is that the sketch you were shown?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see this brochure?
A: No.
Q: Just the sketch?
A: Yes.
Q: Did it have the description underneath it?
A: No.
Q: You didn’t think that was the man?
A: I didn’t think it looked like him.
Q: Now, you have testified in Court about this incident on two different occasions before this, haven’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And those times Mr. Bundy was present, wasn’t he?
A: Yes.
Q: I was present?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Yocom?
A: Yes.
Q: And you described the incident both those times, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you cry during those times?
A: No.
Q: Is it the crowd here that is making you nervous?
A: Yes.
Q: And you noticed the blood on this coat you say, that night?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, the policemen looked at the coat that night. Didn’t they look to see if there was any blood on it?
A: No.
Q: Didn’t they discuss whether or not there was any blood on you?
A: No. They asked me if I was hurt. I said no.
Q: Do you want to describe the badge the man showed you again?
A: I said it was silver and oval shaped.
Q: Do you recall being asked that at the preliminary hearing?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know what you said there?
A: Probably that it was silver or gold.
MR. O’CONNELL: I’d ask that her testimony in that regard, in fact, her testimony generally, be published at this time, of the preliminary hearing.
THE COURT: Any objection?
MR. YOCOM: No objection.
THE COURT: The testimony of the witness at the preliminary hearing will be published.
Q: I will just read it, then. Line 5 of page 24:
“Question: Could you describe the badge and where you got it from?”
“Answer: It was silver and blue, or else gold and blue. And it wasn’t a star. It was kind of round, kind of oval-shaped.”
Do you have any explanation for why you said it was blue and silver or blue and gold then?
A: Because it had a symbol on it or writing or something, but I couldn’t see what it was.
Q: Well, you were asked by the police officers on the night this occurred what color it was, weren’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And that time you said it was all silver or all gold, didn’t you?
A: Did I?
Q: Well, did you?
A: I can’t—
Q: You don’t remember?
A: No.
Q: Was it blue? Did it have blue on it?
A: I think it had a little blue on it, whatever was on it, the symbol or the writing.
Q: Now, when the police officers were questioning you about this, they showed you their badge, didn’t they?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said it was different?
A: Yes.
Q: And how did you tell them it was different?
A: Their badges were bigger.
Q: And what else?
A: Theirs weren’t the same shape.
Q: And what else?
A: I don’t know.
Q: You told them that the badge the man used didn’t have any blue on it, didn’t you, that the badge that the man showed you was like theirs, only it was half as big, and the badge the kidnapper had didn’t have any blue on it like the Murray Police officers, right?
A: Theirs had a lot of blue on it.
Q: That’s right, and that’s what you were describing when you described it at the preliminary hearing, wasn’t it?
A: No.
Q: Well, do you think you told the police officers on November 8th that the badge that the man had had blue on it?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Now, the wallet the man had the badge in was a wallet like mine, wasn’t it?
A: Similar.
Q: I mean, what I meant was it folds so that the money folds in half?
A: Yes.
Q: Rather than folding it so the money stays straight?
A: Yes.
Q: And the badge was attached to it somehow so that he flipped it open like this, and you could see the badge, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, going to the car that was used on the night of November 8th that you took a ride in, what color was it?
A: I said it was a light beige, white.
Q: You said it was a light beige. Could it have been blue?
A: I could have said it was.
Q: I am asking you now, could it have been blue?
A: No.
But you have described it, in fact, on November 8th you described it as a light blue car, didn’t you?
A: I might have.
Q: When did you decide that it was beige? When Jerry Thompson showed you those photos?
A: No.
Q: When?
A: I was really shook up that night. There’s a lot of things I didn’t exactly tell them.
Q: Well, they asked you what color the car was several times, didn’t they?
A: And later on I said it could have been a white or beige, too.
Q: But now you have decided it couldn’t be blue. Why is that?
A: I don’t understand.
Q: Well, on the night it happened, you said that it was light blue or white. Now you say it couldn’t have been blue. What made you come to that conclusion that it couldn’t be blue now when on November 8th you were saying it was light blue.
A: Or beige or white.
Q: All right. When did you eliminate light blue as a possibility? Do you know?
A: No.
Q: Today you testified that when you were walking with this man over to the laundromat, you were walking on his left side. Is that your testimony now?
A: Over to the laundromat?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Where were you walking?
A: I was walking on his left side outside of the mall, not over to the laundromat.
Q: Where were you walking in relation to him when you were walking over to the laundromat?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: You have testified previously that you were walking a few feet behind him?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you were at the laundromat, you said that you were quite suspicious of him, he was a stranger. You indicated to Mr. Yocom that—I don’t know whether you said it or he was just implying it—that you were at that point concerned. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you go?
A: Because he showed me a badge. I thought it was all right.
Q: I see. You also said that you didn’t have to go, right?
A: Right.
Q: It was entirely up to you?
A: Yes.
Q: And so at that point you were reassured that it really was a policeman, or you wouldn’t have gone, right?
A: Yes.
Q: I mean, you wouldn’t have gotten into some strange man’s car and driven off with him if you didn’t think he was a policeman, would you?
A: No.
Q: Did he smell of alcohol?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you said you saw some rust spots on the car. Where did you see the rust spots?
A: On the very front of it.
Q: Anywhere else?
A: On the side, maybe.
Q: Pardon?
A: On the side.
Q: Where on the side?
A: On the door.
Painted over rust spots on the VW door, October 1975. Courtesy Bountiful PD.
Q: On the door? Do you remember Mr. Yocom at the preliminary hearing asking you the same questions?
Line 10, page 27:
“Question: Now, when you say there were spots on the vehicle, rust spots; where were they located on the vehicle itself, Carol?”
“Answer: On the front, on the hood that opens up.”
“Question: Any other place?”
“Answer: No.”
Do you know why you said that?
A: No.
Q: Have you been looking at these photos of Mr. Bundy’s car recently?
A: No.
Q: Other than in court, have you ever looked at them?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Thompson show them to you? Other than Mr. Thompson showing them to you while you were on the witness stand, have you ever looked at the photos of the car with Jerry Thompson?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Murray Police officers on November 8th about seeing rust on a door?
A: No. I don’t remember.
Q: They questioned you quite thoroughly about that automobile, didn’t they?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Well, they wanted to know if there was anything unusual about that car, didn’t they?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn’t tell them about seeing any—in fact, you told them that you couldn’t remember any particular dents or rust spots, didn’t you?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Do you have a memory, though, of that car not having a license plate on?
A: That night I told them, I was very shook up.
Q: But no license plate would have been something unusual, wouldn’t it?
A: Yes.
Q: More unusual than rust spots on the hood, isn’t it?
A: No.
Q: Don’t practically all old Volkswagens have rusty spots in the front on the hood?
A: I don’t know. Do they?
Q: Now, when did you notice this rip in the upholstery of the car? When you climbed into the car the first time?
A: When we were walking toward the car; when I climbed in the car.
Q: You saw the rip. Now, you did tell the police about that rip, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: What color was the upholstery?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Did you notice anything else about the interior other than the fact that it had seat belts and it had a rip in the back seat?
A: There was stuff on the floor of the passenger’s side.
Q: Do you have any idea how many light-colored Volkswagen bugs there are with ripped seats?
A: No.
Q: There is quite a few, aren’t there?
A: Probably.
Q: In fact, most of them have ripped seats, don’t they?
A: Most old cars, very old ones.
Q: Particularly Volkswagens?
A: Yes.
Q: You already testified you are 5’7, right?
A: Yes.
Q: How much do you weigh?
A: 108.
Q: And that was roughly your size on November 8th?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you participate in any sports?
A: No.
Q: Ever had any self-defense training?
A: Once.
Q: Was that training, or someone just telling you about it?
A: Someone just telling me about it.
Q: Do you recall how you managed to get away from that man on November 8th?
A: No.
Q: It is your testimony now he was trying to hit you with that iron bar?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you keep him from doing it?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Remember talking to the police officer, I believe it was Joel Riet, about whether or not he was really trying to hurt you on November 8th, 1974?
A: No.
Q: Didn’t you have a little discussion with him where you both decided that he probably wasn’t since he was so much bigger than you were?
A: No.
Q: How tall am I? Do you want to stand up?
A: I have heels on.
Q: What were you wearing that night?
A: Loafers.
Q: Well, can you give a guess how tall I am?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any idea how much I weigh?
A: No.
Q: It is your testimony now that you did scratch this man, is that right?
A: Because my fingernails were all broken.
Q: Going to page 38 of the preliminary hearing, do you recall Mr. Yocom asking this question of you:
“Do you recall ever scratching him with your fingernails?”
And your answer: “No.”
Do you have an explanation for that?
A: No.
Q: In fact, the officers on November 8th asked you if you remembered if you hurt the man in any way, and you told them no too, didn’t you?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Okay. Let’s go to these green pants. Can you describe them further than that?
A: They were straight legs.
Q: They didn’t have any flare to them?
A: Right.
Q: Did they have a cuff on them?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Did you tell the police that they did not have a cuff on?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of jacket?
A: A dress jacket.
Q: Did you tell the police that he had a dress jacket on?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Or did you tell them you couldn’t remember the jacket?
A: I said it was a jacket, though.
Q: You said it was a jacket. Was it Mr. Yocom who asked you if it was a suit jacket at the preliminary hearing, and you first said that it was a suit jacket, isn’t that true?
A: But it was.
Q: What color was it?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: What kind of shirt did he have on?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Was he wearing a tie?
A: No.
Q: Now, on the night of November 8th, you couldn’t answer any of these questions, you said you didn’t remember; right?
A: Right.
Q: And you say he was wearing a mustache?
A: Yes.
Q: Shortly after the incident you told Joel Riet that you thought it over and decided the man didn’t have a mustache, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And sometime later you decided he did, right?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you make that decision?
A: Right after I decided that he didn’t have one.
Q: Did you tell Officer Riet right then that you had changed your mind again that he had a mustache?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Taking a photo out of what was at the earlier motion Defendant’s Exhibit 13, and it’s a mug shot with the number 63660, 11-1-73, Sheriff’s Office, Salt Lake County. Wasn’t it in regard to looking at this photo that you told Mr. Riet that you didn’t think the man had a mustache?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Didn’t you say that this looks just like the man only he wasn’t wearing a mustache?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Do you remember seeing this photo before?
A: No.
Q: You picked out several photos at different times as looking like the man—showing you again from Defendant’s Exhibit 13, which is an envelope full of photographs—and that number, Exhibit 13, is the one from the earlier motion, your Honor, rather than this—showing you Driver’s License A 664002, you said that that looked generally like the man, didn’t you, at one time?
A: The hair.
Q: The hair looked like that?
A: Sort of.
Q: If that what you mean by “greased”? Or was it shiny like that?
A: Yes.
Q: You described on the night of November 8th the man’s hair as being dark brown and black, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: You just don’t recall all the photos that you picked out that you said looked like the man?
A: Not looked like, just things about them, the way they had their hair cut or their mustache or—
Q: Well, there was one photo that Bountiful showed you that you made an identification of and said it looked quite a bit like the man, and got him in quite a bit of trouble, didn’t you?
A: I don’t know. Did I?
Q: Well, didn’t you say it looked like him?
A: I don’t know what picture you’re talking about.
MR. O’CONNELL: Well, the problem is, I can’t find it. It was one of the photos we used in the last hearing. It was in one of those folders, your Honor, and it’s not there now. Whether it fell out or what.
Q: Now, as far as viewing photographs went, you viewed an awful lot during the first month after this incident, and then quite a period of time went by before they showed you photos again, is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times before the lineup did you see Mr. Bundy’s photo?
A: Twice.
Q: You have testified previously that you saw it three or four times?
A: I might have.
Q: Were you mistaken then?
A: Yes.
Q: And since the lineup, you have seen it some more times, haven’t you? Well, you have seen it in court, for example, haven’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have been reading newspaper stories about this case, haven’t you?
A: No.
Q: You haven’t?
A: No.
Q: You’ve testified at the preliminary hearing you have been reading the Deseret News stories about this case?
A: But not recently.
Q: But you were—between the lineup and the preliminary hearing you were reading the stories in the paper, though?
A: Some.
Q: And they would have had his picture in the paper, wouldn’t they?
A: One.
Q: Just had it in once?
A: I only remember seeing it once.
Q: Now, you don’t remember when Mr. Thompson showed you his picture the first time, right?
A: No.
Q: Well, do you remember him coming to your place of employment on September 1st of 1975 with the pictures of the automobile?
A: Yes.
Q: And they were just ordinary Polaroid size photos at that time, weren’t they, or were they big ones like this?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Referring to State’s Exhibits 20 and 21?
A: I don’t remember if they were big or small.
MR. O’CONNELL: Your Honor, if I may straighten up the record, the photo which I previously identified as coming from Defendant’s Exhibit 13 at the previous hearing and as having number 663660: I said Sheriff, but that is Salt Lake City Police Department and is now Defendant’s Exhibit 25; is that correct Mr. Yocom?
MR. YOCOM: That’s correct.
MR. O’CONNELL: And that’s the photograph I believe you said that you didn’t recall much about, is that correct?
MISS DARONCH: Yes.
MR. O’CONNELL: All right. I will move—I guess she didn’t identify it, so I can’t. I will have to wait on that.
Q: Defendant’s Proposed Exhibit 26 is the photo you said looks something like the man, particularly the hair?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. And you picked that out for Officer Riet? Do you know?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Now, when Officer Thompson showed you the photos of the car—you previously identified State’s Exhibits 20 and 21—he showed you four photos at that time, didn’t he?
A: Yes.
Q: And you told him that that was the car that had been used in the kidnapping, didn’t you?
A: I said it looked a lot like it.
Q: You said, “That’s the car,” right?
A: I might have.
Q: How could you tell from looking at these photos?
A: The rip’s identical to what I saw.
Q: What else?
A: It didn’t have a license plate.
Q: Now, will you please look at Defendant’s Exhibit 29. Do you see the license plate in that photo?
A: No.
Q: Can you see it in Exhibits 28, 20, or 21?
A: No.
Q: So you didn’t recognize that car and the photos because it didn’t have a license plate on it, did you?
A: I don’t know if I said that, even.
Q: Well, you just said it two minutes ago, didn’t you?
A: No. You asked me if that’s what I said.
MR. O’CONNELL: Well, can you go back and read the record, Mrs. Price?
(The record was read)
Q: And we went through the same thing at the preliminary hearing, did we not?
A: Yes.
Q: Where you said the way you told that the car in the photos was the car that you saw November 8th was because it didn’t have a license plate? You said that at the preliminary hearing too, didn’t you? Do you recall?
A: No.
Q: All right. On page 65:
“Question: Now, so you had, I take it, then looked at the car in pictures and said ‘That’s the car’; is that right?”
“Answer: Yes.”
“Question: And how could you tell it was the car?”
“Answer: It didn’t have a license plate on the front, and it was real beat up, the back seat was ripped exactly—”
“Question: But it didn’t have a license plate on the front and because the back seat was torn?”
“Answer: Yes.”
Q: Really, what you are recalling, then, was not the photos but the car you saw up on the Avenues with Officer Collard, is that right?
A: No.
Q: When did you ever see a car without a license plate other than your statement that you saw it on November 8th, 1974?
A: Just on November 8th.
Q: Okay. So how did you tell that these pictures were the car on November 8th, just because of the rip?
A: Yes.
Q: And the rip only appears in State’s Exhibit 20 and Defendant’s Exhibit 28, right?
A: Right.
Q: In fact, they can be any Volkswagen, couldn’t they?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you telling us that you can look at State’s Exhibit 20 and say that that is the exact same tear that you saw when you climbed into a car on whatever that street was in Murray in November of 1974? You can say that?
A: No. I said it looks a lot like it.
Q: Now, just after you looked at these car photos for Jerry Thompson, he gave you a pack of photos and asked you to look through them, didn’t he?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was the time that you picked out a photo and put it in your lap and went through the rest of the photos, then you gave the photos back to Jerry Thompson and said “He’s not in there,” didn’t you?
A: Did I?
Q: You don’t know?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: And didn’t he say, “Well, what about that photo,” referring to Mr. Bundy’s photo that was in your lap? And it was at that time you said, “I don’t know, I guess it looks more like him—or it looks closer to him than any of the other photos”; isn’t that the way that particular selection went?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: You don’t remember. Well, you remembered at the preliminary hearing, didn’t you? That was a little closer to the incident, wasn’t it? Closer to the time he showed you the photos at the preliminary hearing, wasn’t it?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Okay. Publishing preliminary hearing, page 79, starting, I guess, at the bottom of the page, line 24:
“BY MR. O’CONNELL:
“Question: And that was when you looked through and said—exactly what happened on that occasion? Was it that you gave them back and that you had took Mr. Bundy’s photograph out from the pack and then you gave the pack back and said there wasn’t anybody there of the person, and they asked, well, why did you take that one out, and you said, ‘Well, that one looks more like him than any other picture.’ Isn’t that how it happened?”
“Answer: Yes.”
“Question: In fact, your first statement was that the man’s picture—that the man who had done it wasn’t in there, but that Mr. Bundy was closer than other people?”
“Answer: Yes.”
I don’t know whether I’m that inarticulate or whether the reporter got it wrong.
Q: Do you remember when the next time was that you saw Mr. Bundy’s photo?
A: I think it was two weeks later.
Q: Wasn’t it on September 4th when the officers from Bountiful came up to get you to go look at a car?
A: No. I don’t think it was that same day.
Q: You don’t think it was that soon after?
A: No, that same day. I don’t remember exactly what day it was.
Q: It was sometime after Officer Thompson had shown you the first pack, right?
A: Yes.
Q: You think it was a couple weeks?
A: I think.
Q: It could have been, say, three or four days?
A: No.
Q: Well, it was on a day that they came up to take you to go see if you could see the car, right?
A: No.
Q: It wasn’t?
A: It might have been.
Q: Well, in fact, you went through the pack of pictures they showed you once, and then you went through it again, and you picked out Mr. Bundy’s photo, and you said, “I think that may be the man,” or something to that effect, didn’t you?”
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Well, let’s put it this way: You never made a positive identification of a photograph, did you?
A: Right.
Q: That’s correct. Well, do you recall the Bountiful officers coming on several occasions to try to take you to see the car itself?
A: Yes.
Q: There were a couple of attempts that weren’t successful, then on September 8th Sgt. Collard took you up and showed you a car on the Avenues, didn’t he?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that car have a license plate on it?
A: No.
Q: And that’s when you remembered, isn’t it, when you were talking about how you identified the photograph because it didn’t have a license plate?
A: I was thinking of the car that night.
Q: Well, obviously, you were thinking of the car that night, because you were trying to see if the car in the photo or the car in the street matched it. But when I asked you how you could tell on two different occasions in two different court proceedings, you said it was because the car and the picture didn’t have the license plate on it. Now, my question was: Were you just confusing the car that you saw in the pictures with the car you saw on the street? You were just wrong, is that it?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Did you tell Officer Collard that the car you saw up on the Avenues was the car you were kidnapped in?
A: I might have, because it didn’t have a license plate. But it looked completely different.
Q: Well, at the preliminary hearing you said you didn’t identify it, right?
A: (No answer).
Q: What else about it made you think it was the car, other than it didn’t have a license plate? It looked completely different, but you identified it anyway, isn’t that true?
A: Because it was supposed to be the car in the pictures.
Q: That’s right, and that’s why you identified it, because it was supposed to be the car?
A: Because it didn’t have a license plate, and I knew it had been changed.
Q: That was your testimony also at the preliminary hearing, was the reason that you identified it was because it was supposed to be the car that was in the picture, and you knew the officers weren’t taking you up to see the wrong car, right?
A: Right.
Q: You pretty well identify what the law enforcement officers want you identify, don’t you?
A: No.
Q: You did at that time, didn’t you?
A: No.
Q: Let’s go to another time. Showing you Defendant’s Exhibit 28. Now, can you identify that? Have you seen that photograph before?
A: Yes.
Q: And at the preliminary hearing, didn’t you on two occasions say—identify that as a picture of the rip in the car that you saw on November 8th, 1974?
A: Yes.
Q: And then I pointed out to you that—or asked you whether or not you had ever seen the car from the back on November 8th, 1974, right?
A: Right.
Q: So how did you identify it at that time?
A: By the flap part that was sticking down.
Q: What flap part? The sponge rubber?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. This is State’s Exhibit 20. This is the way it looked from the front?
A: I could see this part from standing on the side of the car, not directly from the back.
Q: From standing on the side? You get a better shot—this picture is taken from the side, isn’t it?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact, it’s taken from the rear quarter window, isn’t it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, show me in this picture what you—you got a better view, more of a view to the back on November 8th than this picture shows?
A: No.
Q: In fact, you were more from the front, weren’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now, show me in this picture what there is that you saw that you could remember at the preliminary hearing so that you could identify that rip as the one you saw?
A: Just this top portion.
Q: Well, you can’t see this part, can you, from the front, or even from the side?
A: But it is curving over here.
Q: Well, don’t all Volkswagens curve over?
A: I don’t know. Do they?
Q: Well, you identified that just because Mr. Yocom handed it to you and asked you if you could identify it, didn’t you?
A: And you were pushing it in my face.
Q: Well, let’s go back to when Mr. Yocom was pushing it in your face, young lady.
MR. YOCOM: Your Honor, I think counsel ought to be cautioned—
THE COURT: All right, no argumentation with the witness. On the other hand, I want the witness to just answer the questions.
MR. O’CONNELL: Page 116, this is Mr. Yocom:
“Question: With Exhibit B, do you recognize that photograph?”
“Answer: Yes.”
“Question: And what is that?”
“Answer: It’s the ripped part of the top of the back seat.”
“Question: And in what way, if any, does that resemble the vehicle you were in on November 8, 1974?”
“Answer: It had a rip just like this one.”
BY MR. O’CONNELL:
“Question: I’m showing you State’s Exhibit B. Looking at that, you can say that that’s the ripped seat you saw on November 8, 1974?”
“Answer: Yes.”
“Question: How can you tell?”
“Answer: It just looks like it.”
“Question: Well, do you remember any particular little dents or tears or pieces hanging out or anything like that?”
“Answer: Just the way it’s ripped.”
“Question: Did you ever look at that car on November 8th from the back?”
“Answer: No.”
Have you ever viewed any other Volkswagen automobile, other than the one with Officer Collard up on the Avenues, with a police officer to see if it was the car used on the night?
A: No.
Q: You never have?
A: No.
Q: Didn’t you view one with Officer Paul Forbes shortly after the incident?
A: Yes.
Q: You decided it wasn’t the car?
A: Yes.
Q: Why? What was different about it, do you remember?
A: The rip in the back seat wasn’t the same.
Q: Anything else?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Remember being taken to the University of Utah to see if you could identify somebody?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you go, do you recall?
A: No.
Q: Well, roughly when, say, in relation to being shown those pictures or the lineup or anything?
A: It was before the lineup.
Q: It was the day before the lineup, wasn’t it?
A: Was it?
Q: I don’t know.
A: I don’t know.
Q: I’m asking you.
A: I don’t know, either.
Q: Do you recall where you went up there?
A: I don’t know what building it was, exactly.
Q: Was it the law school?
A: I’m not familiar with up there.
Q: Well, who all was up there with you?
A: I don’t know their names.
Q: There were a number of police officers and a number of county attorneys, weren’t there?
A: Not a whole lot.
Q: And you hung around a little while with Jerry Thompson inside the building and didn’t see anyone, right?
A: Right.
Q: And Officer Thompson told you the man wasn’t there, right?
A: Yes.
Q: What man did you think he was talking about?
A: I don’t know. He never told me his name.
Q: You knew it was the man whose pictures you had picked and whose car you picked, right?
A: I didn’t know it was the man in the pictures I picked. They never told me anything about anything.
Q: Well, I know, but you gathered it, didn’t you? Didn’t you gather that before the lineup?
A: Well, yes.
Q: All right. Before the lineup, you knew that the man you were looking to see if you could identify was a law student, and that he had a beige Volkswagen, didn’t you.
A: I didn’t know if he was a law student.
Q: Well, you testified previously that you knew that he was a law student and had a beige Volkswagen, didn’t you?
A: (No answer.)
Q: You associated the pictures of the man you had picked with the automobile, hadn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And you associated the trip up to the law school or up to the building at the University with the man you had picked, whose photos you had tentatively picked, hadn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: You knew that these policemen were closing in on a hot suspect, didn’t you?
A: I guess.
Q: Well, weren’t they acting that way, coming and seeing you every couple days and driving you around town and having officers out following somebody around so that you could try to find out where he was to look at him; do you recall all that?
A: Yes.
Q: It was a pretty extensive activity there during the first—or, in fact, all through September, wasn’t it? With Bountiful and with the County Sheriffs?
A: I really don’t know what they were doing.
Q: You knew they were doing something, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact, you were quite frightened at the lineup, weren’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: Because you were pretty certain that the man who kidnapped you was going to go in that lineup and he might see you, weren’t you?
A: No.
Q: Now, in that lineup you could have recognized Mr. Bundy from seeing his pictures even if you hadn’t seen him before, couldn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: I mean, nobody else in that lineup looked like his picture, did it?
A: No.
Q: Now, do you have separate images in your mind of what the man looked like on November 8, 1974, and what each of the pictures of Mr. Bundy looked like and what Mr. Bundy looked like at the lineup and what he looks like today? Can you flick through your mind and have those images come out?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever seen Mr. Bundy in a mustache?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Have you ever seen his picture in a mustache or a beard?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Showing you what has been marked Defendant’s Exhibit 27, referring to Driver’s License C 124012, have you ever seen that before?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you pick that picture out and say that that looked a lot like him–the man that abducted you—except for the hair?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said that the officer was showing you these pictures, in fact, I believe he showed you 27 and 27-A at the same time, he said, “Look through these and pick out the hair that looks the most like him,” and you picked Drivers License C 90747, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: He had that kind of hair, you said?
A: Sort of.
MR. O’CONNELL: I will move the introduction of Defendant’s Exhibit 31 as being a transcript of her statement to the police officers, to Officer Joel Riet on November 8, 1974.
MR. YOCOM: No objection.
THE COURT: Exhibit 31 is received.
Q: Showing you a group of photographs 30-A through S, I will ask, you to look through there and see if any of those are photos of ripped back seats, and see if any of those are like the rip that you saw on November 8th, or for that matter, the rip you saw in Mr. Bundy’s car?
A: I really can’t see it too good in some of these pictures.
Q: Do you know if it’s in there?
A: No.
MR. O’CONNELL: That’s all.
MR. YOCOM: You mean that’s all the questions?
MR. O’CONNELL: Yes. That’s all the questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. YOCOM:
Q: Carol, at any time when you observed photographs shown to you by police officers, did any of them ever—let me rephrase that—what did they tell you each time you were shown photographs?
A: Just to look through them, if I saw anyone that reminded me of the man, to pick it out and show them what reminded me about it; or if I saw the man, to pick it out, or if l didn’t see anything that I liked, I didn’t have to pick out anything.
Q: And was that all that was ever said to you at any time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did anyone ever suggest to you that the suspect’s picture, or a suspect’s picture, was contained in those photographs?
A: No.
Q: Did you know on September 1st when Officer Thompson showed you a group of photographs that there would be a suspect in those photographs?
A: No.
Q: Did you know on the 4th day of September when Officer Beal from Bountiful showed you a group of photographs whether or not the man would be in those photographs?
A: No.
Q: Did you, when you went to the lineup, know that the man that assaulted you—kidnapped you on November 8th—was going to be there?
A: No.
Q: Did anyone tell you he was going to be there?
A: No.
Q: Did you know his name?
A: No.
Q: Did you know his occupation?
A: No.
Q: Did you know anything about Theodore Bundy on October 2nd at the lineup?
A: I don’t think so.
Q: Counsel asked you on cross-examination if you could have identified Mr. Bundy at the lineup without seeing his picture.
MR. O’CONNELL: No. Excuse me. I will call for the record on that. I asked her if—she might object to this even more—I asked her if she could have identified him just from his pictures without having seen him on November 8th, 1974. She said she could have.
THE COURT: Yes. That was the testimony.
MR. YOCOM: Sorry. I must have written it down wrong.
MISS DARONCH: I thought he said the other way too.
Q: What question did you think you were asked?
A: If—what you thought. I mean, I couldn’t from the picture, is what I mean, for sure.
Q: You couldn’t tell if he was the man strictly from the pictures?
A: Yes.
Q: When you saw him in the lineup, could you tell?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you associate the lineup at all with seeing pictures?
A: No.
Q: Seeing Mr. Bundy at the lineup when he first walked into the lineup room, whatdid you associate that with, Carol?
A: When he first walked in was the way he walked on that night.
Q: What night?
A: November 8th.
Q: Did you know immediately?
A: Yes.
Q: And you are positive today?
A: Yes.
MR. YOCOM: No further questions.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. O’CONNELL:
Q: Well as to being able to pick him out just from the pictures, we. have gone through that twice, haven’t we? Once at preliminary hearing and once this afternoon? And both times, you said that you could pi.ck him out even if you hadn’t seen him, you could pick him out—and I would follow it up with the question, “Well, nobody else in the lineup looked like his pictures?” And both times, both this afternoon and at the preliminary hearing, you agreed. Is that right?
A: I thought you said the other way around.
Q: Both times you thought—
A: I don’t remember the first time.
Q: Or did you and Mr. Yocom discuss that with regard to the preliminary hearing testimony, is maybe why you made that mistake at preliminary hearing?
A: No.
Q: Now you are saying that you didn’t think the man who kidnapped you was in the lineup, is that right? You didn’t know that he was?
A: No.
Q: You didn’t even suspect that he was, strongly?
A: Yes.
Q: That’s why you testified that you were afraid, wasn’t it? You were worried that he’d see you?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: You said that you associated the man with the car and the pictures and the going to the Law school, and you testified to that two or three times, haven’t you? Haven’t you?
A: (No answer.)
Q: Well, yes or no?
A: Will you say that again?
Q: Haven’t you on two or three times now testified that you associated the man in the lineup, prior to the lineup, going in the lineup, with the pictures, with the viewing of the car, and with the law school; that you knew that the man that you were looking for was a law student and had a tan car? Haven’t you testified that that’s true several times?
A: Yes.
Q: And it is true, isn’t it?
A: Yes.
MR. O’CONNELL: That’s all.
MR. YOCOM: No further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Miss DaRonch, you may step down.
Special thanks to the Bountiful Police Dept., the University of Utah, Garfield County, Rob Dielenberg, and Carol DaRonch.